17 hmr for fox?

Posted by: davejohnson3

17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 02:39 PM

so i have done some searching about this but there seems to be 2 sides to the story. some claim they drop fox out to 200 yards with a chest shot, and some say that you can shoot one 5 times with one and it will just laugh and walk off rolleyes

so does anyone on here have any personal experiences with using a 17 on fox? i would most likely be calling and shooting grays about 70% of the time if that matters at all. i would probably only have shots 100 yards max
Posted by: larr

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 02:51 PM

never had a problem shooting red fox out to 175 yards, never had to shoot one more than once either. i hunt two farms and the longest shot i could take is about 350 yds but i wouldn't use the 17 hmr for that distance. i just call them in close (about 100yds) and shoot them. never had a runner yet. i shot one in the chest at 175 yds and it drooped him in his tracks. I'm sure you will hear other people who will disagree with me but I'm telling you this from my experience.
Posted by: Bax

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 03:25 PM

I think a fox is the limit for 17 HMRs. And that is pushing it in my personal opinion.

Before I say any more though, keep in mind: only you are the one who can determine if you are comfortable using a .17 HMR on a fox.

My personal experience is that the .17 HMR really looses its energy quickly, so you would really want to be sure of shot placement. If you shoot beyond 100 yards, I would personally be careful not to hit him in a boney area because I am not convinced that it would penetrate enough to cause a fatal wound.

100 yards would be the MAXIMUM that I personally would shoot a fox at. However, there are others that pull longer shots off regularly and the fox is DRT. I still think its not wise to shoot a coyote with one though...

Ultimately it just boils down to your comfort level and skill level IMO.
Posted by: davejohnson3

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 03:29 PM

i wouldnt use it for yotes, just fox, actually i came across some ballistics numbers where a 17 actually carries more energy beyond 100 yards than a 22 mag, and i have heard of people shooting them that far with a 22 mag.
Posted by: getfoxy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 04:02 PM

Heres my story. I called in a red to 35yards (roughly) I shot him with the 20g gamepoint right in the chest. He was facing me. Very little blood and no recovery. I say no for the 17hmr.
Posted by: getfoxy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 04:03 PM

Double post.
Posted by: Bax

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 04:12 PM

Originally Posted By: getfoxy
Heres my story. I called in a red to 35yards (roughly) I shot him with the 20g gamepoint right in the chest. He was facing me. Very little blood and no recovery. I say no for the 17hmr.


Do you wonder if it had to do with the bullet hitting bone? Those game point bullets seem to be pretty explosive in my experience. The .17 HMR seems to do best on soft tissue, but once a bone is introduced, it seems to lack the penetration you would expect.

I shot two jack rabbits standing next to each other some time ago. One was slightly obscured by a small bush and the other was fully within view. I shot the one within full view first about mid-torso and he dropped instantly and was DRT. Then I set my sights on the other that was slightly hidden by the bush and shot him in the upper shoulder. The jack then started screaming and flopping all around. When I came up on him, I noticed that his front shoulder was broken, but the TNT bullet I shot him with never penetrated beyond the bone. So I ended up having to finish him off up close. I wonder if that is where the .17 HMR's weakness lies?
Posted by: lon0121

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By: davejohnson3
i wouldnt use it for yotes, just fox, actually i came across some ballistics numbers where a 17 actually carries more energy beyond 100 yards than a 22 mag, and i have heard of people shooting them that far with a 22 mag.


read this,
http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_17HMR_22WMR.htm

i vote magnum! just take less farther shots.
Posted by: getfoxy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 04:48 PM

Luke, its possible, but just the reaction of the fox to the shot, you can tell he just wasnt impressed with what I brought to the party lol
Posted by: ARCOREY

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 05:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Luke Baxter
Originally Posted By: getfoxy
Heres my story. I called in a red to 35yards (roughly) I shot him with the 20g gamepoint right in the chest. He was facing me. Very little blood and no recovery. I say no for the 17hmr.


Do you wonder if it had to do with the bullet hitting bone? Those game point bullets seem to be pretty explosive in my experience. The .17 HMR seems to do best on soft tissue, but once a bone is introduced, it seems to lack the penetration you would expect.

I shot two jack rabbits standing next to each other some time ago. One was slightly obscured by a small bush and the other was fully within view. I shot the one within full view first about mid-torso and he dropped instantly and was DRT. Then I set my sights on the other that was slightly hidden by the bush and shot him in the upper shoulder. The jack then started screaming and flopping all around. When I came up on him, I noticed that his front shoulder was broken, but the TNT bullet I shot him with never penetrated beyond the bone. So I ended up having to finish him off up close. I wonder if that is where the .17 HMR's weakness lies?


I would say you probably hit the void between the bones if anything. My experience on groundhogs, which tend to be tougher than fox, is that the 20gr. Gamepoints penetrate too deep on fleshy gut shots and require a bone like a skull or shoulder blade to initiate expansion. The 17gr. polymer tips seem to splash on bone, but blow out nice in fleshy areas. I use the 20's and shoot for heads and shoulders on everything. I used my 17HMR exclusively while trapping this year and there was no pelt damage on any of my takes and most were head shot. These animals included coons, red fox, skunk, possums, and a groundhog. The possums were the only ones that didn't drop DRT. I did shoot some of these animals free range at a distance while on my way to the traps. Distances were point blank to 80yds.
Posted by: Heretic

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 06:32 PM

I've had no luck with my .17 HMR on Jack Rabbits out to 80 yards. I wouldn't try .17 HMR on anything else. Great target gun, a lot of fun to shoot, but as for killing power - I've not had a positive experience.

My friend recently took a 60yd shot at a coyote with his .17 HMR. Head shot, coyote shook it off - literally. Started trotting away, when another buddy had a shot with his .223. Dropped in it's tracks.

I'm sure others have had better experiences but I'm convinced a heavier round with more energy is required, at least where I hunt, for fox, bobcat, etc.
Posted by: Kzone

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 08:17 PM

Quote:
My friend recently took a 60yd shot at a coyote with his .17 HMR. Head shot, coyote shook it off - literally. Started trotting away, when another buddy had a shot with his .223. Dropped in it's tracks.


Where was the hit from the hmr.? At that distance a centered head shot will put a big hurtin on a yote for that matter any head bone hits will be alot more than a shake off more like hittin the ground and then maybe get up.
Posted by: Takem

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 08:48 PM

I have to defend the HMR. I started using it this season. I too had read the nay saying but knew a few experienced ethical hunters that vouched for it. It is the only thing I use now. Very impressed. Drops them a whole lot better than a 22 mag. Thats what my friend uses. Not sure why. He also uses fragmenting ammo. I guess the extra fps makes a difference. I know that statement is far from scientific but it's been our experience with a few dozen red foxes between the two of us this season. Doesn't wake up the neighbors either. PM me if you have any questions. I have tons of pics of foxes shot with hmr. Autopsy pics too, showing the damage to the shoulder. Bullet goes in and doesn't come out. Shot some over hundred yards at night and some as close 5 yards. Well one was 5 yards and almost ended up in my lap. When people say it's not enough gun and they had foxes run off I'm dumbfounded. If that's true Why doesn't it happen to me? Has to be a bad shot. Maybe a bad shot on the first outing with the hmr left a bad taste in their mouth. It would make me skeptical too I suppose. But if someone says they have used it more than a few times on foxes with the same results they need to hit the range because they're shooting poorly and blaming the caliber. Maybe it's like when the guy with the 300 mag tells me my 243 is too light for 50 lb sika deer. I'm not sure what else to say except ignore the negative posts. They're wrong. 100% positive, not a single doubt.
Posted by: GameEarGabe

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 08:53 PM

I mostly call in areas where it is rimfire or shotgun only so I shoot a 22 mag. To me it only makes sense to go with the most you can use when dealing with rimfires. I shoot a Savage 93 with heavy barrel.

Gabe
Posted by: Bax

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By: getfoxy
Luke, its possible, but just the reaction of the fox to the shot, you can tell he just wasnt impressed with what I brought to the party lol


Ha ha. It sounds like a game of poker. "I see your .17, and raise you a .223"


I think the best use I have personally found for the .17 HMR is exposure for new shooters. No recoil to be felt, and accurate. I have gotten a lot of friends interested in shooting by using this caliber.
Posted by: lon0121

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 09:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Takem
I have to defend the HMR. I started using it this season. I too had read the nay saying but knew a few experienced ethical hunters that vouched for it. It is the only thing I use now. Very impressed. Drops them a whole lot better than a 22 mag. Thats what my friend uses. Not sure why. He also uses fragmenting ammo. I guess the extra fps makes a difference. I know that statement is far from scientific but it's been our experience with a few dozen red foxes between the two of us this season. Doesn't wake up the neighbors either. PM me if you have any questions. I have tons of pics of foxes shot with hmr. Autopsy pics too, showing the damage to the shoulder. Bullet goes in and doesn't come out. Shot some over hundred yards at night and some as close 5 yards. Well one was 5 yards and almost ended up in my lap. When people say it's not enough gun and they had foxes run off I'm dumbfounded. If that's true Why doesn't it happen to me? Has to be a bad shot. Maybe a bad shot on the first outing with the hmr left a bad taste in their mouth. It would make me skeptical too I suppose. But if someone says they have used it more than a few times on foxes with the same results they need to hit the range because they're shooting poorly and blaming the caliber. Maybe it's like when the guy with the 300 mag tells me my 243 is too light for 50 lb sika deer. I'm not sure what else to say except ignore the negative posts. They're wrong. 100% positive, not a single doubt.


i take it you yourself have in fact shot the 22 magnum at fox and have proof in the pics that it DOES NOT drop fox better than the 17??? im not asking about your friend shooting it, i want to know how you yourself did with both calibers when putting both in the same spot on the critter! and then you say the 17 drops fox better than a 22 magnum? educate us sir!
Posted by: WvYotehunter65

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 09:21 PM

I have to take the side that says no, the 17 is not a good choice for fox. The 22 WMR is a way better choice.
Posted by: muddydog

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 09:40 PM

Seems like people either love or hate the 17. I bought me one last year to nite hunt with. I didnt shoot any fox but I did shoot about 50 coons. It wouldnt kill a coon with a single body hit. I now am on the hater side. There just aint enough lead to kill effectively in the event of a poorly placed shot. Why shoot a marginal gun? There are tons of better calibers or use a shotgun. Killing an animal is serious stuff and they all deserve a quick humane kill.
Posted by: RC2125

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 09:43 PM

Got a nice grey with the hmr a few years back. Just over 100yds, slight angle broadside, 17gr vmax, bullet went in and fragmented into tiny pieces. The largest little fragments and plastic tip were just beneath the skin on the opposite side of the rib cage, bang/flop. Very impressed with how it worked, that one time.
On the flip side, have had poor results on MANY coons core/body shot with the hmr. Coons are considerably tougher than any fox though. Better all around results with the 17gr vmax bullets rather than the 20's. Did many tests with the 20's into all kinds of dead critters, meats, etc at all kinds of ranges. Have yet to recover a 20 that actually produces any kind of expansion, let alone fragmentation, usually just some slight deformation of the hollow point.
Playing with the 17 tnt's this season, but haven't had much cooperation with the critters so far. Hoping there will be a bit less fragmentation with a little more penetration.
Posted by: lon0121

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By: muddydog
Seems like people either love or hate the 17. I bought me one last year to nite hunt with. I didnt shoot any fox but I did shoot about 50 coons. It wouldnt kill a coon with a single body hit. I now am on the hater side. There just aint enough lead to kill effectively in the event of a poorly placed shot. Why shoot a marginal gun? There are tons of better calibers or use a shotgun. Killing an animal is serious stuff and they all deserve a quick humane kill.


i shot a coon with mine twice in the chest and it still squirmed about making a gurgling dying noise! i shot it in the head and he was lights out! i did drop opossum DRT with it with chest shots. can a 17 drop a coyote/ fox/ coon! sure! it can be done! but you must make a clean vitals hit if not aiming at the head. Same with a 22wmr. although a 22 magnum hits alot harder....the 17 reaches a little bit farther out but like any gun loses energy! and flinging a 17 or 20 grain pill at a target like a fox at far distances it is CRUCIAL to hit vitals.....or headshot! we have had the song and dance before..
Posted by: muddydog

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 09:52 PM

I dont care how good of shot you are. The 17 is marginal on any game bigger than a ground squirrel at best!
Posted by: Takem

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 09:58 PM

Originally Posted By: muddydog
I dont care how good of shot you are. The 17 is marginal on any game bigger than a ground squirrel at best!


Another ignorant pile on comment
Posted by: muddydog

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 10:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Takem
Originally Posted By: muddydog
I dont care how good of shot you are. The 17 is marginal on any game bigger than a ground squirrel at best!


Another ignorant pile on comment


And another followed
Posted by: lon0121

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 10:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Takem
Originally Posted By: muddydog
I dont care how good of shot you are. The 17 is marginal on any game bigger than a ground squirrel at best!


Another ignorant pile on comment


as always you will have difference of opinion than others on a sore subject like this.....nothing educational ever comes from these posts! trust me!

pretty soon, we will have a pi55ing contest on this very thread!
Posted by: muddydog

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 10:05 PM

The 17 is marginal, why do you think there are so many post of people asking opinions?
Posted by: ARDave

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 10:12 PM

I have killed piles of fox with a 22 mag. If I were just hunting fox, thats all I'd use. I gurantee you its plenty of gun under 100 yards (for fox). I used the 40 grain hollow points. Never had a problem with them running off. I have seen them killed just as dead with the 17 though too. I like the 22 mag over the 17 myself. Thats just me though.
Posted by: jj1980

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 10:25 PM

Fun to shoot, not my first choice for killing! Seen some well placed shots work and some good shots not work. If you reload load down some .223 and use a less "explosive" bullet if your worried about a fur friendly round.

My 2 cents, which doesn't mean much!
Posted by: muddydog

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 10:30 PM

[quote=jj1980]Fun to shoot, not my first choice for killing! Seen some well placed shots work and some good shots not work. If you reload load down some .223 and use a less "explosive" bullet if your worried about a fur friendly round.



Well said. Best post in this thread
Posted by: davejohnson3

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 10:39 PM

okay well i did some research, and looking at ballistics data a 17 hmr with a 17 grain bullet hits with about 25 more ft lbs of energy at 125 yards (either that or 150yards, forgot) but anyways, so i think that the numbers speak for themselves. a lot of guys around here use the 17 for fox and i was just trying to get some more opinions. after trapping several fox and interacting close with them i have little doubt that a 17 wouldnt be enough for them. once the skin is off, they are smaller than a stray cat almost. i plan on only taking good shots and not just flinging bullets. as to coons, heck! i cant even kill em with a 12 gauge half the time! coons are TOUGH! and very fatty. sometimes they just have a will not to die. my buddy that coon hunts said often it takes 6-7 body shots to get one to fall out of the tree, and after that they are still often alive. i shot one once with my bow 4 times, and it walked off with all my arrows, until i got him pinned with the 5th. hopefully i will see for myself how it works
Posted by: lon0121

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 11:19 PM

a 40 grain pill out of a 22wmr is deadly!

best thing you can do is like you said! go see for yourself!

good luck!


lonnie
Posted by: Orneryolfart357

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 11:26 PM

Guys use FMJ's on TV and are praised for it by their peers. Lots of comments about, "if its legal" dont knock it. Some that approve one thing as ethical will knock something else that they deem not as ethicle. If its legal, apparently it should be used. This is where personal education comes in. Research it, use what you think is best. Good luck.
Posted by: RePete

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 11:27 PM

Originally Posted By: davejohnson3
a lot of guys around here use the 17 for fox and i was just trying to get some more opinions. after trapping several fox and interacting close with them i have little doubt that a 17 wouldnt be enough for them.


Soooo,,,, you had already done your research and pretty much had your mind made up before you asked the question, but asked it anyway just to see the fur fly?

Very well done!!! laugh

I for one,,,, never get tired of the Hummer threads. smile
Posted by: muddydog

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/15/11 11:37 PM

Hey we have to have something to get us fired up every now and then. Hey its a gun so it aint all bad! To each his own and good luck with your 17.
Posted by: OKRattler

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 12:27 AM

The biggest animal I expect to kill every time I shoot one with my .17HMR is a badger.I won't make shots on them if they're past 75 yards though and I think 75 yards is even pushin the limit.It wouldn't be a bad idea to set a limit to how far you'll shoot at a different types of critters based on how confident you are with your rifle and also the size of the animal you plan on killing.For example I could hit a prairie dog out to 200 yards with a 17gr. V-Max and kill it easier than I could a badger at 200 yards using the same type of bullet.
I've seen alot of critters take hits from the .17HMR and die right on the spot.That list of critters includes starlings,prairie dogs,armadillos,feral cats,skunks,jackrabbits,porcupines,badgers and a coyote.

Even though I've shot alot of animals with the .17HMR and had them die right on the spot I've also seen some critters take a hit that should have killed them but instead they kept on going like nothin happened.
One example from this year is a feral cat that I shot in the chest with a .17gr V-Max.It didn't stop until it tryed to run up a fairly steep hill.It ran head first into the side of the hill and fell over dead.I also shot a jackrabbit through the neck with a 17gr V-Max and it ran every bit of 40 yards before falling over dead.It wasn't no flesh wound either.It was easy to tell where it had been before it piled up because it was bleedin like a stuck hog.But that doesn't mean the .17HMR aint any good.Because you probably know just as well as I do that every once in a while you're gonna run into a critter that seems a little tougher than normal.

I will also mention the time that I shot a sparrow with a 20gr FMJ and it actually flew up into a tree before it died.And yes I said a sparrow.....as in one of those little birds that you'd think a .20gr bullet would blow in half.Anyway....Like I said it took a hit from a FMJ and it flew up into a tree before falling out of the tree deader than a hammer.If you say you're gonna use FMJ's for huntin with a .17HMR I can make a prediction right now.I'd say 9 times out of 10 you aint gonna find whatever you shoot with them unless you're shootin a paper target or a pop can.I've been called a liar after telling that story before but that's alright I saw it with my own eyes so it doesnt matter.I also had several prairie dogs and jackrabbits run off after gettin hit with bullets out of the same box of shells.Maybe that bird was just one of those critters that was alot tougher than most.I don't know all I can tell you is that in my experiences with them,FMJ's are terrible for anything but target practice.If you don't believe me pick up a box of 20gr FMJ's and go huntin with them is about the only thing I can tell you.If you use a .17HMR for any type of huntin use V-Maxes,HP's or Gamepoints and stay away from shoulder shots on cats or any heavy bodied critters.It'll just splash and make a fairly big hole but it won't kill them.That's about the only good advice I have about all that .17HMR business.
Posted by: rugerider

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 01:33 AM

17 grain tnt's explode. I shoot squirrels with those and there is nothing left but tiny pieces after it hits.
Posted by: OKRattler

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 02:21 AM

They'll pop a prairie like it's nobodys business too.I killed 3 starlings with 1 shot with one of the TNT's before.The starling first in line had a hole through it.The exit was larger than where the bullet went in but that's probably no big surpise to anyone.The second one got blown in half.And all that was left of the starling at the back of the line was a head and a wing.I guess that a pretty good example of how fast those little bullets expand/break apart.
Posted by: yotekilla313

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 07:47 AM

I don't see how people can say "I hit it in the chest or right in the head and it ran off" If it ran off how do you know where you hit? The shot could have been slightly off but you have no way to accuratley tell if there is no recovery. I'm not defending the 17 but I think some people blame their tools rather than think that perhaps they made a less than perfect shot. That being said even a perfect shot doesn't always drop them right there. How many deer are shot with 30-06 every year and run a good distance before expiring.
Posted by: davejohnson3

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 08:39 AM

Originally Posted By: RePete
Originally Posted By: davejohnson3
a lot of guys around here use the 17 for fox and i was just trying to get some more opinions. after trapping several fox and interacting close with them i have little doubt that a 17 wouldnt be enough for them.


Soooo,,,, you had already done your research and pretty much had your mind made up before you asked the question, but asked it anyway just to see the fur fly?

Very well done!!! laugh

I for one,,,, never get tired of the Hummer threads. smile


well kinda, i asked this question but then asked around and did some research while it "soaked" on the forum thumbup

i guess its better to argue about a gun than it is to argue about politics tt2
Posted by: davejohnson3

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 08:46 AM

as to the story about using fmj's and the sparrow, after shooting a ton of critters, i have had experiences like you. i have come to the conclusion that every shot is different, and sometimes, the difference between DRT and the animal running can be only fractions of an inch. for example, i shot a buck with a 30-30 a few years back, thought he should have dropped right there, he ran about 200 yards and dropped. hit him square in the heart. i guess it also depends on the animals adrenaline rush to. ever trail that deer that you think should have bled out by now but hes still goin? adrenaline... one time is also took us 8 shots out of 22 lr's to kill a porcupine, stuff just happens. so after those experiences i have come to the conclusion that (about any weapon) that if people have a bad experience they try to portray that as the rule rather than the exception. its kind of like the news, they only dwell on the bad stuff
Posted by: 64kodiak

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:32 AM

Some of these comments are amusing to say the least. The hmr has more energy at 150 yards than a 22lr does at the muzzle. MILLIONS of animals in traps have been dispatched cleanly with a .22lr....many of them by me. I can assure you, shooting a coon at point blank range will result in a very dead coon, so it stands to reason an HMR will do the same at short ranges.

As for fox, were talking about a little bitty 10-12# animal. You don't need a .223 to dispatch one at 'normal' calling ranges. The HMR will do just fine.

I shot a called coyote last week at 75 yards with my HMR. Shot him behind the shoulder as he was broadside. He ran about 5-10 yards, started spinning, and died in about 5 seconds. Not a big coyote, probably 30# or so. Anecdotal evidence, you bet.

BTW my main calling rifle is a Sako 75 Hunter in .17 Rem. However, sometimes I prefer the discretion of using a rimfire in populated farm country.

Posted by: 17tactical

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:39 AM

Having shot foxes and coons at distances from 20-120 yds, I would say it works. I regret ever selling my Savage 17 HMR.
Posted by: ARCOREY

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 01:36 PM

Originally Posted By: jj1980
Fun to shoot, not my first choice for killing! Seen some well placed shots work and some good shots not work. If you reload load down some .223 and use a less "explosive" bullet if your worried about a fur friendly round.

My 2 cents, which doesn't mean much!


This reminded me of one of my hunts, nothing personal toward you at all jj1980.

I actually tried this with my combo gun shooting Blue Dot and Berger 30gr. MEF hollow points in 223. I called a little grey in and had what I thought was a head on chest shot. Squeezed off the round, he thrashed and ran. Only runner fox I've ever had. I found him about 2 hours later laying in the mouth of the den about 75yds from where I shot him. I caught the reflection of his eyes in the light while I was looking for him in a ditch about ready to give up. The shot turned out to be a quartering to shot entering behind the shoulder and exiting infront of the opposite rear leg. I had no idea he was quartered, must have missed that in the excitement. Mostly guts, no bullet expansion or hide damage resulting in no blood trail. I failed first by missing my shot by about 2" even though it wasn't a chip shot and secondly by using a bullet too solid for my intended game. I have since switched to the Barnes Varmint Grenades hoping for expansion just under the hide with no penetration. Unfortunately I haven't found a willing test subject yet. I can't say the 223 is inadequate for fox because of this, but I can say that the 30gr. MEF is probably not a good choice of bullet for the task, even though I probably would have killed the fox easily with a heart or brain shot. You can lose a fox with any caliber, a grazing shot with a 50 BMG will pluck hair and leave a fox with a reverse mohawk, even though it is more than adequate for the task tongue_smilie. You have to try things for yourself, and if it isn't working for you, then switch. Just make sure you don't wrecklessly go after fox with something like a Red Ryder BB gun sneaky2. 17HMR's, 22LR's, 22 mags, and 223 obviously work for many on here. Pick one and try it, just make sure you can be accurate with it first.
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 02:18 PM

Originally Posted By: RePete
Originally Posted By: davejohnson3
a lot of guys around here use the 17 for fox and i was just trying to get some more opinions. after trapping several fox and interacting close with them i have little doubt that a 17 wouldnt be enough for them.


Soooo,,,, you had already done your research and pretty much had your mind made up before you asked the question, but asked it anyway just to see the fur fly?

Very well done!!! laugh




I was going to stay out of this until you said that. That was the very first thing I thought as well. I believe maybe an agenda was behind all of this.


Chupa
Posted by: 64kodiak

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 03:00 PM

Quote:
I believe maybe an agenda was behind all of this.


What 'agenda'? The guys is just looking for some verification of his initial thoughts on the matter.

If you don't think the HMR will reliably kill foxes out to 150-200 yards, I'll have to conclude that you've never tried it.

They're the size of feral tomcats for cripes sake. Go ahead and shoot your 300 mag at em, they won't be any deader.
Posted by: Chris_Brice

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: 64kodiak
The hmr has more energy at 150 yards than a 22lr does at the muzzle. MILLIONS of animals in traps have been dispatched cleanly with a .22lr....many of them by me. I can assure you, shooting a coon at point blank range will result in a very dead coon, so it stands to reason an HMR will do the same at short ranges.



I shot a called coyote last week at 75 yards with my HMR. Shot him behind the shoulder as he was broadside. He ran about 5-10 yards, started spinning, and died in about 5 seconds. Not a big coyote, probably 30# or so. Anecdotal evidence, you bet.



I just love these "animal in a trap dies from a .22 so anything must be ok" post. I suppose that since many many coon, in traps and trees, have died on the spot from a .22 short that a .22 short must be ok for coon and fox callin? Lot's of cattle are slain with .22 rimfires too so that must mean a HMR is ok for elk hunting too? Called critters are not stuck in traps or trees. They are moving before the shot and can and will run after being shot. You can't take 30 seconds to steady yourself and aim, things happen fast. I'm not saying the HMR isn't enough for fox, the truth is I just don't know. But comparing killing a called, free rangeing fox for to shooting a fox in a trap is a bad example.

As for the "I shot a fox in the chest, it ran off and I found no blood" posts........sounds like a miss to me. Don't worry, happen to all of us.

CB
Posted by: 64kodiak

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 03:49 PM

Quote:
But comparing killing a called, free rangeing fox for to shooting a fox in a trap is a bad example.


Nonsense. Either the shot is there or it isnt. You wanna fling lead for fox be my guest, I'd suggest a .308 AR.
Posted by: DiRTY DOG

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 04:16 PM

I've successfully taken a handful of foxes with the 17gr Vmax, longest shot was 155 yards DRT, closest 30 yards front gut shot blew out the belly n guts. Almost all are DRT. Never lost a fox with the 17gr Vmax.

Last month I tried the Hornady 20gr XTP soft points. I had two greys come in on the same stand at night. Hit the first one perfect broadside and heard the impact. Fox went down, wiggled, crawled off ten feet into thick brush. Hit the second one quartered away slightly. Heard the impact, he flopped over, then got up a few seconds later and took off into thick brush.

Both shots were 85-90 yards. The first shot was "perfect" broadside, found a good blood trail but lost it 25 yards into the brush. Second shot I'm not sure about since it was now or never but I know I hit him. No blood trail at all. Went back in the day and could not find either one.

So after many successful kills with the 17gr Vmax, and then loosing the first two foxes with the 20gr XTP, I will never use the XTP's again. I suspect they zip right thru with minimal expansion. I hunt in super thick brush so anything that runs more than a few yards might not be revovered. The DRT capability of the 17gr Vmax rules in my opinion.

I'd try the TNT's but accuracy sucks in my gun. Vmax's are the most accurate.
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By: 64kodiak
Quote:
I believe maybe an agenda was behind all of this.


What 'agenda'? The guys is just looking for some verification of his initial thoughts on the matter.

If you don't think the HMR will reliably kill foxes out to 150-200 yards, I'll have to conclude that you've never tried it.

They're the size of feral tomcats for cripes sake. Go ahead and shoot your 300 mag at em, they won't be any deader.


Once again, defense mechanism takes precedent over fact.

I did NOT say that the hummer was ill suited for fox. I have said many times that I think the HMR is a viable fox round. Not %100 sure of 200yds, but I have not taken a shot on a fox at that range either, few foxes around me.

The problem I have is that ".17HMR" has become a buzzword around here and always seems to stir the pot regardless of it's use or intended purpose. The OP said that he had done his research on the matter, but asked again anyway, knowing full well that a "Hula-Baloo" would ensue. That is the agenda I refer to. The consensus on "Is the .17HMR enough gun for COYOTES ?" is well documented here and is open for all to see, so what is the next pot stirring question going to be? FOX? Raging Hamster? It doesn't matter what the target is, it will always be contraversial, and the OP knew this.

Don't pretend to know me or my intentions, my thoughts and intentions are very well layed out in my post. Anything derived from my post that was not expressly written out is on you and your defense of your weapon. In this case, I did NOT say/imply anything untoward of the chambering, that was your assumption.

Stop digging before you can't climb out.


Chupa
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 04:48 PM

Originally Posted By: 64kodiak


They're the size of feral tomcats for cripes sake. Go ahead and shoot your 300 mag at em, they won't be any deader.



By the way, I like %90 of the hunting population in North America have no use/demands for the "Super Short Ultra Whizzer Double Belted Magnums". The largest caliber I own is a .30-06 and it will kill anything I point it at here. I see atleast 10 .300Mags at the range on a daily basis here in Texas. What deer here in Texas requires a .300Mag? It makes me laugh. You want to go hunting overseas? Ok, now you have an argument, otherwise it's chest thumping or ignorance.<------refering to Texas.

Why does everyone want to kill with the use of something either minimal or to the opposite extreme?

Chupa
Posted by: getfoxy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Chris_Brice
[quote=64kodiak]

As for the "I shot a fox in the chest, it ran off and I found no blood" posts........sounds like a miss to me. Don't worry, happen to all of us.

CB


Go back and read. I said I found little blood. I did find blood. Clearly it was a hit. Thanks anyway
Posted by: 64kodiak

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 06:20 PM

Quote:
Don't pretend to know me or my intentions, my thoughts and intentions are very well layed out in my post.


You inferred the OP had an agenda, I did the same thing to you. The difference is what exactly? Rhetorical.
Posted by: DAB

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 06:21 PM

If the opportunity presented itself to me to kill a fox while hunting with MY 17 HMR and 20 grain bullets and it was with in about 100 to 125 Yds I would shoot to kill.

What I would like to know what is the percentage of Coyotes, Bobcats, Foxes that you have shot that were BANG/flop or DRT... no matter what caliber you were using.
That never spun or ran any where at all. I bet you a dollar to a hole in a doughnut your percentages are very low.

Even on the DVD's I have of predator hunting ( which I have a lot of ) there are not that many BANG / Flop or DRT.

DAB
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 06:31 PM

Originally Posted By: 64kodiak
Quote:
Don't pretend to know me or my intentions, my thoughts and intentions are very well layed out in my post.


You inferred the OP had an agenda, I did the same thing to you. The difference is what exactly? Rhetorical.



Any time you ask "Is a .17HMR enough for......?" around here, you know full well you are about to stir up a sh!t storm. You may not know this, because you have been here for the length of a cup of coffee.


Chupa
Posted by: 64kodiak

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 07:09 PM

Quote:
Any time you ask "Is a .17HMR enough for......?" around here, you know full well you are about to stir up a sh!t storm.


I've lurked on these forums for 10 years and have been calling fox for 30 years so yes I know exactly where you're coming from. But the "Is a .17HMR enough for......?" question is still a valid one AND alot of people are newcomers to the sport.

Personally I see alot of oldtimers knee-jerking their answers when it comes to all rimfires. How many of those guys REALLY believe it takes a .223 to kill a 10# critter? That notion is ridiculous IMO and needs further discussion.
Posted by: RePete

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 07:43 PM

grin grin grin

Did I mention that I love Hummer threads?
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: 64kodiak
Quote:
Any time you ask "Is a .17HMR enough for......?" around here, you know full well you are about to stir up a sh!t storm.




Personally I see alot of oldtimers knee-jerking their answers when it comes to all rimfires. How many of those guys REALLY believe it takes a .223 to kill a 10# critter? That notion is ridiculous IMO and needs further discussion.



Now we are getting closer to understanding each other. I don't believe the blanket statement of the hummer being ONLY good for varmints. I have even gone so far as to say that in the proper hands it is capable of out doing it's original intents, the key word however is "In the right hands".

When someone says (paraphrasing)"I have done the research, and know the popular consensus, but want to ask anyway". This lends me to think that they want to kick the hornets nest and watch as others deal with it. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But I bet someone is having a nice laugh as we set here and point fingers.


Chupa
Posted by: Orneryolfart357

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 07:52 PM

But to really stir it up.. The OP should have also asked which is Better... Savage or Remington.. lol
Posted by: 64kodiak

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 08:23 PM

Quote:
This lends me to think that they want to kick the hornets nest and watch as others deal with it.


Maybe he did...lol. It's always fun to argue online. I've done it on the archery forums for years! lol

My position is that in farm country shots of 100 yards and in are the norm. 22 mags and 17 HMRs will take down anything that comes in at those ranges. Also, hunting at night in many states requires rimfires or shotguns.

I love both the 22 mag and the 17 HMR. Given the choice I'd take a 17 HMR. Sometimes in populated areas the muzzle blast of a centerfire can cause some concern from the locals, so a rimfire is more appropriate in certain circumstances.

OF COURSE the centerfires are more lethal, most everyone knows that, and I do I love my .17 REM . However, rimfires can and do effectively take thousands of predators a year. That's all I'm trying to say.
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: 64kodiak
Quote:
This lends me to think that they want to kick the hornets nest and watch as others deal with it.




OF COURSE the centerfires are more lethal, most everyone knows that, and I do I love my .17 REM . However, rimfires can and do effectively take thousands of predators a year. That's all I'm trying to say.


No argument here on that. Every chambering has it's limitations, I think if a caller/hunter has the skills to put himself in a situation to take game within the limitations, it will certainly work. I have never said any different than that, although some would think otherwise. For instance, MY calling skills make the HMR a VERY limiting chambering for me, but for a guy like Tony Tebbe.....it probably wouldn't even be a mild annoyance for him. Maybe I don't always translate my thought into text as best as I should, but on this topic people seem to mis-interpret what I'm saying often, when in reality my views probably aren't much different than theirs. Would I recommend an HMR for a beginning caller? Nope. The limiting nature of the round coupled with inexperience may turn them off completely to the sport if their success isn't of the percentage that they feel is acceptable.


Chupa
Posted by: davejohnson3

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 09:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Chupathingy
Originally Posted By: 64kodiak
Quote:
I believe maybe an agenda was behind all of this.


What 'agenda'? The guys is just looking for some verification of his initial thoughts on the matter.

If you don't think the HMR will reliably kill foxes out to 150-200 yards, I'll have to conclude that you've never tried it.

They're the size of feral tomcats for cripes sake. Go ahead and shoot your 300 mag at em, they won't be any deader.


Once again, defense mechanism takes precedent over fact.

I did NOT say that the hummer was ill suited for fox. I have said many times that I think the HMR is a viable fox round. Not %100 sure of 200yds, but I have not taken a shot on a fox at that range either, few foxes around me.

The problem I have is that ".17HMR" has become a buzzword around here and always seems to stir the pot regardless of it's use or intended purpose. The OP said that he had done his research on the matter, but asked again anyway, knowing full well that a "Hula-Baloo" would ensue. That is the agenda I refer to. The consensus on "Is the .17HMR enough gun for COYOTES ?" is well documented here and is open for all to see, so what is the next pot stirring question going to be? FOX? Raging Hamster? It doesn't matter what the target is, it will always be contraversial, and the OP knew this.

Don't pretend to know me or my intentions, my thoughts and intentions are very well layed out in my post. Anything derived from my post that was not expressly written out is on you and your defense of your weapon. In this case, I did NOT say/imply anything untoward of the chambering, that was your assumption.

Stop digging before you can't climb out.


Chupa


how about you stop pretending you know me or my intentions to then? i did some research, yes, and what i found was only a handful of testimonials, i figured i would come on to a reputable forum such as this and try to get a broader spectrum of answers from people with actual experience. no, i am not driving some "secret agenda" what could my agenda possibly be? i just wanted to know if people have killed FOX (not yotes, as you say i will eventually ask next rolleyes) i dont plan on using it for yotes. i think the proof is in the pudding, the guys who use it (17) have gotten a lot of fox, and it seems the guys that bash it have only taken maybe one shot (and probably a bad one) at a fox, not found it, and then say it is never good.

back to topic, i have continued research and i think that the reason people have "runners" with the 20 grain is because it doesnt expand much in the animal like the 17 grain does. i am going to use it wether people like it or not now, as i am confident it will do the job.
Posted by: davejohnson3

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Chupathingy
Originally Posted By: 64kodiak
Quote:
Any time you ask "Is a .17HMR enough for......?" around here, you know full well you are about to stir up a sh!t storm.




Personally I see alot of oldtimers knee-jerking their answers when it comes to all rimfires. How many of those guys REALLY believe it takes a .223 to kill a 10# critter? That notion is ridiculous IMO and needs further discussion.



Now we are getting closer to understanding each other. I don't believe the blanket statement of the hummer being ONLY good for varmints. I have even gone so far as to say that in the proper hands it is capable of out doing it's original intents, the key word however is "In the right hands".

When someone says (paraphrasing)"I have done the research, and know the popular consensus, but want to ask anyway". This lends me to think that they want to kick the hornets nest and watch as others deal with it. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But I bet someone is having a nice laugh as we set here and point fingers.


Chupa


man for a guy that says "dont pretend to know me or my intentions" you sure do a [beeep] of a lot of it yourself, how about taking some of your own medicine?? i did SOME research, only found SOME info. figured i would ask more experienced people (as i am new to the sport) but apparently i guess you have to know everything about predator hunting before being respected or taken seriously
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 09:56 PM

Your late to the party bro. Try reading every thing said before blowing up. And use the search feature.


Chupa
Posted by: davejohnson3

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:00 PM

i have read "bro", and did use the search, sorry if im "late" guess im not cool enough to be on time,lol. if everyone used the search feature then there would be no new questions
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:04 PM

Originally Posted By: davejohnson3
i have read "bro", and did use the search, sorry if im "late" guess im not cool enough to be on time,lol. if everyone used the search feature then there would be no new questions



"New" questions are always welcome. Bro


Chupa
Posted by: davejohnson3

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:17 PM

sorry i did not use every means possible to make sure what i was posting had never been posted before, for fear i may upset the mighty "chupa" thumbdown

how about this: since your not helping me, move on? thumbup
Posted by: 64kodiak

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:17 PM

LOL great thread.

I enjoy spirited discussions.

My advice is shoot the Hummer at some fox and see if you think it's up to the task. Imo you'll enjoy the caliber(immensely) and it'll be effective for you as long as you're not trying to pop them at excessive ranges.

Good luck.

Posted by: 64kodiak

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:18 PM

Double post.

Posted by: lon0121

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By: davejohnson3
sorry i did not use every means possible to make sure what i was posting had never been posted before, for fear i may upset the mighty "chupa" thumbdown

how about this: since your not helping me, move on? thumbup


I dont think you no longer need help in this....every good thing about the hummer and every bad thing was covered!. some spoke of how they personally felt towards it and some gave Facts. you have opinion on ammo, distance, I even gave you a link with comparisons on it.

the first page was more than enough info for your question, so in reality you should move on as well!.

happy hunting

Lonnie
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: 64kodiak


My advice is shoot the Hummer at some fox and see if you think it's up to the task. Imo you'll enjoy the caliber(immensely) and it'll be effective for you as long as you're not trying to pop them at excessive ranges.






Best advice in this thread so far.


Chupa
Posted by: davejohnson3

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:37 PM

Originally Posted By: lon0121
Originally Posted By: davejohnson3
sorry i did not use every means possible to make sure what i was posting had never been posted before, for fear i may upset the mighty "chupa" thumbdown

how about this: since your not helping me, move on? thumbup


I dont think you no longer need help in this....every good thing about the hummer and every bad thing was covered!. some spoke of how they personally felt towards it and some gave Facts. you have opinion on ammo, distance, I even gave you a link with comparisons on it.

the first page was more than enough info for your question, so in reality you should move on as well!.

happy hunting

Lonnie



and nor am i begging for more answers, i have made my decision

"i am going to use it wether people like it or not now, as i am confident it will do the job."

thank you for those of you who helped
Posted by: lon0121

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 10:39 PM

Originally Posted By: davejohnson3
Originally Posted By: lon0121
Originally Posted By: davejohnson3
sorry i did not use every means possible to make sure what i was posting had never been posted before, for fear i may upset the mighty "chupa" thumbdown

how about this: since your not helping me, move on? thumbup


I dont think you no longer need help in this....every good thing about the hummer and every bad thing was covered!. some spoke of how they personally felt towards it and some gave Facts. you have opinion on ammo, distance, I even gave you a link with comparisons on it.

the first page was more than enough info for your question, so in reality you should move on as well!.

happy hunting

Lonnie



and nor am i begging for more answers, i have made my decision

"i am going to use it wether people like it or not now, as i am confident it will do the job."

thank you for those of you who helped



now ya get it.... thumbup1

good luck

lonnie
Posted by: ARDave

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 11:02 PM

Pros.
Posted by: Chupathingy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 11:36 PM

Originally Posted By: ARDave
Pros.



I knew you could do it Lon! You finally made it.....You're a PRO!!!!!!!LOL



Chupa
Posted by: lon0121

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/16/11 11:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Chupathingy
Originally Posted By: ARDave
Pros.



I knew you could do it Lon! You finally made it.....You're a PRO!!!!!!!LOL



Chupa

thumbup thumbup1

i would just like to thank pm!
Posted by: horse482

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/17/11 01:04 AM

I don't think you will have any problems killing a fox with a .17hmr. I killed one with my 22lr at about 80 yards drt.
Posted by: getfoxy

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/17/11 11:50 AM

Originally Posted By: horse482
I don't think you will have any problems killing a fox with a .17hmr. I killed one with my 22lr at about 80 yards drt.



Oh [beeep]'
Posted by: lon0121

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/17/11 11:52 AM

Originally Posted By: horse482
I don't think you will have any problems killing a fox with a .17hmr. I killed one with my 22lr at about 80 yards drt.


blink
Posted by: 64kodiak

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/17/11 12:40 PM

Originally Posted By: horse482
I don't think you will have any problems killing a fox with a .17hmr. I killed one with my 22lr at about 80 yards drt.


I've shot them at 60 with a 22lr without issue. Again, we're talking about a 10-12# critter, not a 125# wolf. Shot placement rules.
Posted by: RePete

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 02/17/11 02:08 PM


The 17HMR for ______(fill in the blank) never dissapoints, does it?

It really is the thread that keeps on giving. crazy
Posted by: Bucket list

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 05/28/13 12:06 AM

i purchased one for night hunting....I will follow up
Posted by: crowslayer17

Re: 17 hmr for fox? - 05/29/13 01:57 PM

In my opinion this is the problem with the 17HMR. You run the risk of killing the animal and not recovering it. No blood trail with such a small bullet. I think the 17WSM will be the perfect combo with a little more speed and a little heavier bullet. If you want to try I'd keep it under 100yds. and go for a head shot it you can.