What makes a coyote chase a dog?

Posted by: knockemdown

What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 10:16 AM

Serious questions for those of you that have 'decoy' dogs.

In your opinion, what is it about YOUR dog that makes a coyote want to engage it?

If you don't have, or haven't tried 'decoying' coyotes, please hold your supposition, I want to hear about personal experience with YOUR decoy dog(s) smile

We all know that if a coyote doesn't engage your dog, and follow it back to your position, it really isn't being "decoyed". Distracted perhaps, but not decoyed.
So what does YOUR dog do & how does it trip a coyote's trigger to chase it back to you?
Is that skill set trained by you, or is it a natural behavior that your dog has that just needed exposure & development???

Is it the physical appearance (size or color) of your dog that matters?

Is it your dog's attitude on stand (passive, aggressive, vocal) that causes a coyote to engage?

If a coyote won't "decoy" initially, how does your dog stay after that coyote until it brings on an attack or chase response?


Secondly,
How important do you feel breeding is to making a 'decoy' dog?

Houndsman who hunt treehounds & running dogs always seem to recommend getting a pup from 'proven' hunting stock because the genetics odds are in favor of that pup having those same traits. This makes perfect sense to me & many others who want to get started with a good prospect.

If that is the case, then what makes a 'decoy' dog any different?

Why do some guys here encourage any/all newcomers to "try XXX dog out on stand and see what he does"?

I can understand encouraging guys to enjoy their dogs, but is that really sound advice to give a beginner?

If you had a new hunter come on the forum wanting to make a Rottweiler a coon hound, would you encourage him to get or use a Rottweiler? Or would you try to steer him toward a proven coon dog breed like a bluetick, walker, (cur wink ) etc.?


The reason I'm asking is because it seems like most guys here will encourage ANYONE to try ANY dog as a "decoy" dog.

WHY IS THAT?
Posted by: Catdawg

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 12:17 PM

I take it that this question was posed to me, so I'll bite.

I have told newcomers to try their dog out if they were so inclined, simply because I enjoy my time in the woods so much more if I have a dog with me. It doesn't matter if I am hunting, camping, fishing or just out fartin around.

I have raised several decoy dogs, all either Kemmer Curs or Cur crosses and have had some pretty nice dogs that spoke coyote and some that would never have made a decoy dog and a mojo would have done the same job, minus the feed and clean-up.

Then I went out calling with a Govt. Hunter friend of mine in N. Utah as he wanted to see one of my dogs work coyotes. When he got out of his truck and unloaded a sheepdog, I almost [beeep]. I learned that day and have seen it several other times, it isn't the breed of dog necessarily, it is a type of dog you need to make a decoy dog.

Sure there are breeds that will definitely produce that "Type" of dog much more consistantly than others, but if a guy has a dog and it's his buddy, who am I to tell him the dog won't make a decoy dog? I guarantee internet banter and walks through the neighborhood won't tell if the dog will make a decoy dog either. So what harm does it do to take the dog out a few times and see what happens? I'm guessing that's how decoy dogs got started in the first place.

Back to your original question. I think coyotes chase dogs for many different reasons. Territory, breeding, plain old curiosity, hunger at times, etc. Have you ever seen a feral dog running with a pack of yotes? I wonder how that came about as they surely bumped into each other at some point and figured it out that they would welcome the new comer to the fold. That may be what the coyote is trying to do to your dog, right before you send a hot lead pill down his throat.

Have you ever taken your dog to the dog park? Dogs like to play and smart dogs LOVE to play. Decoy dogs have to be pretty smart to do what they do and the ones that I have seen, that were the best at it, made it a game that they LOVED to play. They knew that if they brought that coyote in close enough, they got to chew on it after I shot it. It was a lot like some games dogs play at the dog park... pick a fight and run back to the safety of your owner. I have seen it a hundred times from big great danes running from high strung little spaniels, to little yorkies running from another terrier. Then as soon as the other dog turns it's attention elsewhere, the game is back on.

Take care and happy hunting.
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 02:30 PM

Thank you for an honest post, Mason.

You mention a "type" of dog for decoying.

Along the same logic, isn't a coon dog a certain "type" of dog?
Does the fact that any 'gamey' dog will jump up at a caged coon in a tree make a 'coon dog'? Almost any dog with prey drive will want a piece of coon fur, so what sets the coonhound apart?

And doesn't a fox or stag hound possess a different "type" set of traits that make it a 'running dog'?
I'm sure that there are PLENTY of breeds that will sight chase a coyote. But because a dog possesses that trait, does it warrant the title fox hound/staghound?

My questions are focused on figuring out why the term 'decoy dog' is so ambiguous?
And what makes any ol' dog capable of being one?
Is that really an accurate assement, anymore than saying any ol' dog can be a coon dog?


Sure, every hunter might want their dog to work a coyote somewhat differently, depending on several factors.
But the common denominator remains that a 'decoy dog' will need to somehow MAKE THAT COYOTE engage AND follow it back to the gun.
Much the same that a staghound must RUN TO CATCH and a coondog must TRAIL TO TREE.


So again, I'm not disputing that there is the possibility that ANY dog breed might make a decoy dog.
But can't the same be said for a coon dog? or running dog?

And, despite the ambiguity of the term 'decoy dog', does anyone HONESTLY think a 100+ lb. mastiff breed is worth "trying out to see" if it'll work a coyote on stand?

Or are these words of encouragement just to have a dog along to chew on a dead coyote?

If that is what floats someone's boat, then as I wrote before, have at it! But that's certainly not something I'm going to encourage, since there's already plenty too much hype surrounding 'decoy dogs'. It's obvious that guys like to see that "recovery" stuff (which is fine), but that isn't going to up anyone's coyote take for the year and might only wind up having a pet get chewed up by a wounded coyote.
Again, not something I will encourage anyone to do.

Just my $.02 and hope to get more comments!



Posted by: Dustballs

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 08:27 PM

Fred I have to ask what kind of dog would you recommend for a decoy dog? Would the breed matter? Is there only one breed you would recommend because that is what you have?

Fred what would you tell someone if they came on this site or any other site and asked about getting a Karelian Bear Dog as a decoy dog? Would you suggest something different?
Posted by: Catdawg

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 08:27 PM

Comparing Tree dogs to Decoy dogs is not comparing Apples to Apples. It takes a little more of a specified skill set to trail and tree critters, that is a whole other topic.

Before I knew better, I would have swore to you that you needed a cur to decoy coyotes and to do it very well, on the level needed to perform ADC work, why wouldn't you? Get the right tool for the job.

There are many more ways to skin a cat in most everything you do. I have some buddies in Idaho that tree lions with cow dogs. I also have a friend in California that sometimes trees bears with his pointers. Both instances these guys just have the dogs along and they tree critters. They know that Hounds would put much more game in the tree, but they're happy with the dogs they feed and that's fine with me.

If someone wants to get very serious about decoying as many coyotes as they can with dogs, I would certainly recommend they look at the Mountain Cur breeds. But then again, look at Tebbe's Gunner dog. He should be a hog dog, not a decoy dog, but he don't know that.

I would never tell someone to go check it out with the wife's chorkie, as that could end very badly, but if someone has a dog they think could handle a confrontation... Best of luck and giver her [beeep].

If dogs like Saber and Cougar can decoy yotes... I wouldn't be surprised if any big aggressive dog could get the job done. I'm not saying on every stand with every coyote, maybe not even enough to make it fun, but you have to go to know.

Take care.
Posted by: Duane@ssu

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 09:24 PM

I'll also bite,
Along the same lines as Catdawg was saying, I know guys that tree lions with cowdogs, also chase hogs with cowdogs. I know a guy that hunts coons with a German Short hair.
Breed alone is not as important as "traits" of a certain dog. So the breeding part is,just try to breed a dog with the traits you would like for a "decoy dog, or coon dog, or cow dog or whatever.
No dog or breed will get a coyote to "engage" if it don't want to.No dog, I don't care who's it is will get every coyote to "engage".
The dogs that get more yotes to come in, are the ones that can play the coyote long enough that it finally looses its temper, or is convinced the dog is no threat and just is curious.Not uncommon to spend 30min to an hour with a dog working a coyote,or coyotes.A black lab would not be my first choice for a decoy dog,nor would a Cur cross be my first choice for a pheasant dog, but if that was the only dog I had I would sure give him a try.
So... what is wrong with anybody taking any dog, that they already own, out on a calling stand, and see how it reacts/interacts, with a coyote. I do it every time I take a pup to the feild, I don't know whats gonna happen, until the first real "decoy".From that I decdide how to move forward with that pup. If one pup is a "dough head", I don't cull the whole litter, no more than I would do a cross agin if only one pup out of 8 showed any potential.
The term "decoy dog", is very open,for every ten guys, there are 8.5 definitions of the "perfect decoy dog".
I think the biggest reason is that coyotes inhabit every type of ground in the country, so no one type of dog can be an "advantage" everywhere.
I have freinds in the southeast, that I enjoy hunting with, and I like there dogs,(in their country)Those dogs just aren't what I need to get it done here. On the flip side, my best dog, taken to Florida, would be no help.
Posted by: altabonita

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 10:43 PM

Originally Posted By: knockemdown

And, despite the ambiguity of the term 'decoy dog', does anyone HONESTLY think a 100+ lb. mastiff breed is worth "trying out to see" if it'll work a coyote on stand?


Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 11:06 PM

True short Story; Hunting buddy turned out his lone 85 lb male greyhound/coyote dog on a 47 lb female coyote. The chase was on, greyhound closing the gap.

Greyhound caught the coyote. A hard one on one fight followed. Eventually the greyhound was losing the fight. Greyhound broke free from the fight & ran towards his master's pick-up. Female coyote gave chase. Coyote caught the greyhound & whipped up on his some more.

Again, the greyhound broke free & ran for his master's truck. Again, the coyote took chase & caught the greyhound once more. She hammered his butt one more time. Finally the dog's master drove towards the fight to back-up his dog. Coyote broke & ran.

Why did that coyote give chase wanting to fight that dog even more? I'll tell you why. That coyote "sized-up" that dog during the fight. She knew she could whip that dog & she did repeated times. Believe it or not, some canines will do payback if hammered before.

You watch any decoying action. The coyote is constantly sizing up it's potential foe.

Dogs size up other dogs
Dogs size up intruder people
Coyotes size up coyotes
Coyotes size up dogs or any other animal.
Whether they give chase or fight or run away is up to that individual coyote.
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 11:24 PM

I filmed over 30 minutes of footage today of my dogs and a coyote sizing each other up. The dogs turned in retreat every time the coyote charged. Coyote was from 15 to 30 yards straight down wind of me the entire time. I would like for my dog to have gone to the coyote a little more than he did, but on the other hand he didn't run him off. I would post the video but some people can't keep from being pricks because one dog doesn't necessarily hunt they way they think he should, so instead of people sharing videos and and enjoying the forum people just keep them to themselves. Also, I agree with Kirby's assessment.
Posted by: trapper2

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 11:27 PM

duane you are wishing on the 8.5, ha, ask 10 guys and get 30 different ideas. just poking, ha

i think with treeing dogs and baying dogs you are looking for traits that you cant train, trailing, treeing, loose or tight baying. with decoying i think, and i said "I" not anyone else, i think the very first thing a person needs is a dog that is trainable and wants to please you, if a dog wants to please you and has the brains to learn then there is a real good chance he will make a decoy dog, most of decoying can be taught, a dog needs to go to a coyote, stop and come back, yep some do it alot better then some, some take to it the first time and some take awhile, if a dog has some born in traits then that helps and is even better but my two cents is if they want to please you and got brains then try them. is every dog with those two things the dog i want, no, i like small dogs but i have used a 80 pd cur and a 30 pd border collie. i am luck that i know alot of guys that have had decoy dogs since before the intnet started and people found out about them, i have seen and heard of everything from blue heelers, jack russells, border collies, curs, and anything else that a person could find, the one thing they all had was they wanted to please. i'm not saying that guys like duane that raise a litter and sale is bad, he knows his dogs want to please and have some of the traits that will make it easier to get them there, i know cause i had one of his pups and she had both things i am talking about, plus she was the right size for me. but i think alot of folks get it in their head that if the dog is not from a certian line of dogs or the parents aren't decoy dogs then they will never work, wrong. i have had dogs that made good decoy dogs that their folks were hog dogs and had never worked a coyote in their life, but i knew they were what i was looking for in a dog, so i say if you have a dog that minds and is smart then try him
Posted by: trapper2

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 11:36 PM

fred i forgot the first part, i think what make the coyote want to ingage my dog is "my dog being there" the same reason some dont want to ingage "my dog being there", i think size plays a role, color maybe, attitude, yes, but the deal is all these things play a role but all different at different times of the year. you asked how a dog gets one to ingage if they dont really want to, like catdawg said its a game, i had one that was real good at it but it was just playing to him, he would do the same thing with my old dog at the house just to get her to play with him, he was just playing the game.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/05/12 11:50 PM

One more thing to think about canine vs canine. I watched a documentary on coyotes some 20+yrs ago. A large male coyote tresspassed onto a local pr of coyotes territory.

The local pr was quite abit smaller in size vs the tresspasser coyote. The local small male seen the tresspasser & gave chase. The large tresspasser ran from the smaller male. Soon the local female seen the chase & joined her mate. To run off the large tresspasser.

This documentary was narrated. The narrator remarked the large male tresspasser ran from the small local male. Because it knew it was tresspassing. I happen to agree with the narrator on his assessment.

I've witnessed the same while hunting. Tresspassers know they are tresspassing. Et the locals know their territory boundries. Et will defend them.
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 10:38 AM

Kirby, you have a decoy dog?
And do you think that nature documentaries are edited exactly how the story line goes? Most nature shows I watch use any available footage captured, then make a story up to piece together that footage into something that makes a program...

Ryan (trapper), thanks for your insight.
I happen to think that trailing & treeing are both natural abilities as well. But the pup will still need some type of training to encourage that trait to develop, don't you agree?
Coon dog pups trailing & finding hotdog treats with their nose at a young age, or hanging things in a low branch to encourage treeing ability, that is all training, is it not?
And how many pups learn from following finished trailhounds. Is that not training???

If that pup were not exposed to those situations, do you think it would have the same chance of becoming the same caliber of dog?

After considering that, how is it really so different from encouraging & rewarding the 'play behavior' of a decoy dog? And is it too much of a stretch to assume that some working breeds might possess more of that natural ability than others?

And I apologize for putting you on the spot, Ryan, but do you think it's a good idea to recommend to an inquiring coyote hunter take their pet dog out on stand to "try them out"?
I'm sure you know better than most what a coyote can/will do to a dog on stand, so do you think that potential situation should be encouraged?


Originally Posted By: shampton
I would post the video but some people can't keep from being pricks because one dog doesn't necessarily hunt they way they think he should, so instead of people sharing videos and and enjoying the forum people just keep them to themselves.

If you are calling me a prick, then I accept that, happily. My idea of a prick might be different from yours. I might consider someone who'd bring a dog on stand without a gun to protect him a prick, but that's just me. It's all about perspective, and I don't hold that against anyone...
Regardless of that, not everyone is going to be a "fan" of something posted on the internet, so if "pricks" upset you, then you are better off keeping your vids to yourself.
And contrary to what you might think, if I saw something I like in your (or anyone else's) dog working, I wouldn't hesitate to give kudos!




Duane, thank you. By asking questions, I'm just trying to bring about some discussion. Some might feel that I'm taking jabs at them, but I'm only asking those people to back up what the are typing with some facts & logic to get a better understanding of why they hold that opinon.
That is not to say I have the "right" answers, I SURE DON'T!!! But the logical way to narrow things down is to ask questions of others. Questioning an opinion is paramount to substantiating it. Too bad not many here can answer a critical question without getting their egos bruised in the process. Obviously you can, so again thank you!





Originally Posted By: Dustballs
Fred I have to ask what kind of dog would you recommend for a decoy dog? Would the breed matter? Is there only one breed you would recommend because that is what you have?

Fred what would you tell someone if they came on this site or any other site and asked about getting a Karelian Bear Dog as a decoy dog? Would you suggest something different?


DB, I honestly am not in ANY position to recommend anything about decoy dogs. I can only share what little I've experienced for myself with my pup, and that is precious little. Some has been positive & fun, the rest frustrating (but still kinda fun).

As for NOT recommending a dog, in the case of the other post, that is another deal!

Obviously, that was a kid who was proud of his dog "solving" feral cat & pitbull problems in his town. Does it take an expert to interpret what "solving" means???
So, in that post, we have a young man with a 115 lb. mastiff breed that he's wanting to give more of a "challenge", since the feral cats & pitbulls have all been "solved". And he asks about bringing that SPECIFIC DOG on a coyote stand.
Well, I'm dang sure gonna speak out against doing so, because I feel that bringing that SPECIFIC DOG on a coyote stand be be a complete waste of time. And I honestly don't believe that a 'decoy dog' hunter would want that kind of dog on stand with them, do you???

Offering up analogies with other breeds is irrelevant. And I don't think that there is any particular ONE breed or cross that is head & shoulders above another. But I do subscribe to the notion that there is a "type" of dog that is best suited to being a decoy dog, and a 115 lb Cane Corso is about as far away opposite of that "type" that I could imagine! Short of a Tosa, or some freaky croatian wolf dogs...

Again, I'm asking questions in the spirit of conversation, not to preach from a pedastal. I've claimed ever claimed to be any kind of decoy dog expert, so perish the thought.

And that said, does someone here have to be an "expert" in order to ask questions that bring about discussion? That doesn't make any sense, because the "experts" are those who ideally should be ANSWERING thought provoking questions.

Call me a "prick", call me "devil's advocate", call me whatever you want. But if every one agreed all the time, forums wouldn't be much more that one big circle jerk. and I don't find that to be entertaining or educational...



thoughts?
Comments?
smile







Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 11:59 AM

No I don't own one or ever have owned one. I seen your request of others to not post comments to your questions. Unless they were experienced with decoy dogs. But I posted this info to shed more light on canine(dog or coyote) behavior.

The large 85 lb greyhound. Which got a little to close to a coyote.
Point being, the area was owned by the large female coyote. Dog tresspassed then attacked the coyote. Coyote stood her ground then hammered that dog repeatidly.

I posted these two stories to illustrate coyote behavior. Not necessarily on decoying dogs. It all ties in btw...ie; dog vs coyote, coyote vs coyote, dog vs dog, ect. Et their interactions.

As for what I've observed in the field of coyote vs coyote. Is a territorial pr will run off another coyote that is tresspassing.
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 12:58 PM

How many coyotes a year does your dog "decoy" Fred?
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: SHampton
How many coyotes a year does your dog "decoy" Fred?


Scott, since the last three coyotes he actually did "decoy" in September, my dog has gone ZERO for 12 on the coyotes that I've called in and physically SEEN with my own eyes. How's that for a dismal success rate scared

Every single coyote has absolutely turned inside/out & boogered at the sight of him running toward them. Can't decoy a coyote that's running for it's life, which they do from hound hunters all season long here in NY.
I'm actually quite proud of myself for even calling in that many here in NY, but my 'decoy dog' experiment has been an complete & utter failure here.
Funny, I hunt in Oklahoma every year and somehow kill the friggin' crap outta coyotes? I certainly am envious of your easily negotiated terrain & your coyotes willingness to die!!!

But, to answer your question honestly, I will say again that my dog has decoyed in exactly ZERO coyotes this fur season.

Which is precisely why I don't proclaim to be any sort of 'decoy dog' expert and never hid that fact, or said otherwise.

My dog makes me smile in alot of other ways, so I can't say I'm disappointed with him, in the least. Mainly, because my expectations were kept in check after speaking with guys who run decoy dogs for more than a weekend hobby. Guys like that cut through the 'hype' about using dogs on stand and I appreciate & value their knowledge, which has pretty much been spot on.

But your question wasn't really about my dog, correct?
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 03:14 PM

I hunt coyotes appx. 120 days a year. It's pure pleasure and not business related in any way shape or form so I guess I fall in the middle of the 2 groups you described. If you're gonna be in OK let me know. Ive got lots of ground some of it has suicidal coyotes and some of it has pretty smart ones. We can try to decoy and kill some of both.
Posted by: trapper2

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 06:50 PM

fred, i think it depends on the size of the dog, i'm not going to take my wifes winner dog but i know of a good decoy dog that started out as the guys wife's house dog, it was a jrt and he was so full of energy that the guy decided to start taking him to work to burn some of it off, before long he had a jam up decoy dog, if the dog is regural size then i say try it if the dog will mind, but from what i have seen most dogs dont mind well enough to be controled on stand if they dont know whats going on. and yes i think you have to bring it out in any dog, coon, baying or decoying, i just dont think a decoy dog has to have as many born in traits as some working dogs.
on a side note sorry this thread has taken a turn on you, i like it when there are good discussions on dogs, even if i dont agree with everything, its good to read what people think if it doesnt turn to a pissing match
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 08:38 PM

Thanks again, Ryan.
I don't see why any "regular" sized dog couldn't possibly make a decoy dog either. I was just asking to illict some responses...

And I do realize I'm prolly the 'bad guy' for stirring the pot with some provocative questions. But I try not to say anything personal if unprovoked, since it kinda defeats the purpose of asking those questions in the 1st place. The quickest way for a thread to go south is to get personal, so steering clear of that keeps the communication flowing...

Scott, if I ever get out your way, I might just take you up on your offer! And I DO appreciate the gesture. Man, if I weren't 1,350 miles away, I'd be there with bells on every chance I get...

Since you posted how many days a year you hunt, maybe you can help me cut through some of the 'hype' too wink
How many of those 120 days a year you hunt do you carry a dog?
And of those days with the dog on stand, about what % of the coyotes you call in will work the dog?
And when I say "work", I mean engage & chase the dog back to your calling location?
Lastly (to tie back to the original thread) why do you think a coyote chases YOUR dog back to you? I'm sure you've seen in enough to form your own opinion, so hopefully you'll share it with us???

Again, this isn't to single YOU out. I'm just trying to get some honest information laid on the table, so to speak...
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 09:24 PM

I got my dog Thanksgiving weekend. I take him every trip out and I will do so regardless of the time of year. I enjoy the company of him and the pup. Nov. thru mid Jan. 50% give or take worked him. I can't recall 1 instance where a called coyote didn't lock in on the dog and focus on him allowing 15 plus seconds for a standing shot. Several times coyotes came blazin in and smelled the call and ran off and then stopped and turned to look at the dog. Past few weeks they have become a little more aggressive. I'm trimming, or trying to trim, a video of a young male that was directly downwind and came within 10 yards of me several times. I have not lost or missed a shot opportunity because of the dog. My big dog is not aggressive and I think that is a huge part of coyotes not bugging out on him. Between me and the few guys I hunt with we've killed 31 coyotes that either worked the dog or stopped to check him out and, as you know, there have been a dozen or so decoyed and not shot. I think Kirby's assesment of why they chase the dog is very accurate from what I have seen in the 5 months I've used a dog.
Posted by: TonyTebbe

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 09:45 PM

I'm going agree on Kirby's assessment. You don't hear me say that often. Hahahah. lol I've filmed coyote-coyote interaction, as well as watched plenty of it. They act no different to a coyote, than they do a dog. I'm not really sure a coyote knows a dog is a dog or if it thinks it's a coyote...don't really care. If you get a chance to watch my DVD, you'll see some of the best coyote-coyote interaction that I've ever seen filmed, at the end of my 2nd disk.

I really think it's a territorial thing. If a dog gives chase to a coyote, it's the breaking from the chase that triggers the coyote into fight vs flee. The breaking of the chase shows a sign of weakness and they capitalize. That isn't always the case, as some coyotes keep on running and others charge in to take a dog down at first sight, without any chase at all.

Here's some pics from the other day of a pizzed off male that attacked Gunner at first sight.







They locked up for a good minute or so and Gunner had to show him who's boss.





The coyote ran and Gunner gave chase. He broke from the chase and the coyote switched rolls and chased back to me....and the gun.



Tony
Posted by: btech29

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 09:51 PM

Thems some dang cool pics Tony! Dang cool!
Posted by: ARCOREY

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 10:00 PM

Love the Gunner body slam picture. He's a machine smile.
Posted by: btech29

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 10:22 PM

.
Posted by: trapper2

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 10:42 PM

fred your not the bad guy in my mind, just a guy asking ?'s

tony those are some nice pics

jeff, i know we talked about it the other night but some people dont carry a camera, i have tryed, never was good at it, i know guys that have hours of video that alot of people would kill to watch, i know guys that have great dogs and dont even have a pic of them working, just because people arent seeing it dont mean it aint happening
Posted by: btech29

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 10:57 PM

.
Posted by: trapper2

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 11:02 PM

jeff i'm just saying that there are guys that do and do it real well that never video, same as there are guys that kill abunch of coyotes and nobody ever knows about it, i wasnt trying to get in a numbers game or anything, talk to you guys later
Posted by: Awakeland

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 11:10 PM

.
Posted by: btech29

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/06/12 11:45 PM

.




Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/07/12 07:56 AM

Tony, those pics are cool as he!!, but I've got some questions for you, now... unsure

Of the hundreds and hundreds of coyotes that Gunner has decoyed, about what % of them just steamrolled in, dropped the gloves and went straight to fighting, as shown in your photos above?

Is that behavior the norm, or the exception?

Do you find that super aggresive behavior happening more frequently at any particular time of year?

Are these predominantly males or females?

Pups or adults?

I'm asking because, in the natural world, there is a progression of posturing & 'bluffing' that occurs before a fight ensues. In nature, fighting is a LAST resort and most every wild animal on the planet will resort to a physical fight only under the most dire (life threatening) circumstances. That is key to survival, since fighting very easily could = death for both parties, and nature doesn't cycle correctly with suicide bombers... wink

That said, I think it is precisely that pre-fight posturing & bluffing behavior that a good 'decoy' dog will learn to capitalize on to bring coyotes back to daddy. They realize the gravity of the situation, so they 'play the game' because survival dictates that fighting is a LAST resort.

Anyhoo, in the case of those photos, do you find it preferable that Gunner fights the coyote, instead of him turning tail and luring him back to you?

If a coyote is 'suicidal' enough to pile right into a fight, shouldn't that same coyote be bold enough to follow Gunner right back into your lap?

Are you encouraging that aggressive behavior in Gunner, just to see it?
Or, have you found that aggressive fight behavior translates into more coyotes being 'decoyed' on stand?

Why didn't Gunner just kill that coyote like all the other ones you've mentioned he does?

What made Gunner stop fighting and decide to come back to you?
Did the tables turn after the "bodyslam" & he quit the fight on his own, or did you 'tone' him off from killing that coyote?

In all of your posting ,Tony, that is THE most puzzling thing for me to figure out. Just can't wrap my head around it! What makes Gunner decide to kill one coyote, and decoy the next? Do you have any control over that, whatsoever?

Or is Gunner on 'autopilot', killing the coyotes he can, and quitting when he's losing?
Are all the coyotes that Gunner catches & kills YOY in the fall, or adults?

How does that all shake out???

I'm honestly at a loss to figure out what makes a dog passively 'decoy' one coyote, then flat out kill another one. How does that 180 degree, completely opposite behavior come about?

Dont worry, I'm gonna buy your DVD anyway wink so help us newbies understand what is really happening?
Posted by: CAT DADDY COLD

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/07/12 01:16 PM

I am home working when I ought to be out working my dogs and seen this thread.

That coyote was all business. In the 1st pic you can see its tail held high.
Like it when I see that. You know that coytoe is going to work the dog.
If it plays out long enough and there is a family group within eye or earshot mult coyotes can be killed on that stand.
I LIKED THE PIC'S Tony. Thx for putting them up.

Lots of good post in this thread.

Catch yall later
Kelly
Posted by: TonyTebbe

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/07/12 01:50 PM

Good God Fred, you roll out too many questions to answer in one sitting.

Of the all the coyotes we've decoyed, there has only been two instances of a flat out fight without chase. Both were big aggressive males. One happened the other day and the other back in Jan. Both are dead.

Gunner's job is to lure coyotes back. This is a rare case that he got jumped. After the tussle, he broke loose from the coyote. A bluffing session pursued and the coyote finally headed out, with Gunner on his tail. When they got out 350 yards or so, Gunner broke from chase and headed back to me, with coyote in hot pursuit. This happened a couple of times, before I decided to shoot.

I don't encourage the aggressive behavior for shear enjoyment. Again, this was a case of him being jumped. He doesn't flat kill coyotes on his own, like some wild animal. It's not like that at all.

For the details on how the stand went down, how and why Gunner released, etc... you are just going to have to wait to see the footage. smile

Thanks...

Tony
Posted by: brannon74

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/07/12 02:20 PM

cool pis tony.

Please don't stop posting videos guys. Some of us don't get to hunt much and need the videos and stories to get us through the week.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/07/12 02:41 PM

Dang! someone write that down, Tony agreed? with me laugh
-----------------------------------------
Speaking of canine behaviors/( dog, coyote, whatever).

A long term study was done in Russia "over a 40yr span" by some Biologists in Russia. They used wild Silver Fox. During this study, each yearly litter. They picked out the pups with the most docile. Non-agressive traits in them.

Over the following yrs. They kept breeding the non-agressive/docile fox. Eventually, they noted in those yearlings/off spring. Their color started to change, their tails started to curl. Et their ears started to droop. As they became more "domesticated" vs remaining wild.

Lineage, I believe is a strong factor in agressiveness vs passiveness. Same with coyotes or domestic dogs IMO.

edit; BTW, this was a filmed/televised study. Which made it even better, to see & understand.
Posted by: Awakeland

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/07/12 08:07 PM

+ 1 to brannon74
Posted by: Duane@ssu

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/07/12 09:05 PM

Sure is a fun topic.
Good post, Tony with the good pics, and lots of good discussion.
Knockemdown, you getting anything figured out??????
Not bustin on you, just wantin to know if the responses are helping you??
Posted by: Jesse lackey

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/07/12 09:11 PM

Knockemdown, Im just curiouse here. You said that every coyote you have called in over the past year has boogered at the sight of your dog right? So are you leaving your dog at home when you go call now?

If not why? If he is not decoying every coyote, and increasing your kill rates, then why are you still waisting your time bringing him to the field?

Since your coyotes are boogering at the sight of your dog, and it is clear that size is the determining factor of how good of a decoy dog you have, then are you looking for a new, smaller, less intimidating dog?

No, i dont have any decoy dogs, and never have, but i feel as though im qualified to ask those questions, lol.

P.S. Sure is a heck of a conversation, lots of good stuff on here, kudos to you for starting it!
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/09/12 10:07 AM

Thanks Tony, that makes more sense.
But I still don't get how the same dog just decides to flat out kill a coyote every now & then, as you've described in several of your past posts. But that's getting off topic thread, so I digress... smile

Duane, yes, I'm figuring stuff out, as I'm sure everyone else reading along is. My MAIN objective for asking these questions is to generate dialogue, so I don't merely consider this "Fred's decoy dog learnin 101". I'm sure you're savvy enough to realize that I'm playing 'dumb' to keep within the spirit of playng devil's advocate... wink


Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey

Knockemdown, Im just curiouse here. You said that every coyote you have called in over the past year has boogered at the sight of your dog right? So are you leaving your dog at home when you go call now?


Hi Jesse.
Yes, every coyote since the end of September has flat out run away from my dog approaching and/or barking.
Yes, I have indeed left him home for a few stands in the woods.
Now, I'm leaving the dog AND myself at home now since NY's coyote season ended on 3/25 smile
Although PA remains open, I don't have near as many spots to hunt there. And I don't have the inclination to kill adult coyotes with pups in a hole somewhere, so staying home is fine by me.

Quote:

If not why? If he is not decoying every coyote, and increasing your kill rates, then why are you still waisting your time bringing him to the field?


Well, I'm not, as stated above wink

But I was trying to give the pup an honest chance to show me something during our season. As a reminder, my dog still isn't 2yrs old yet, and he actually did very well on the few coyotes that felt bold enough to approach, so naturally I wanted to see that develop.
The main 'test' is that I wanted to see for myself if our very spooky & nocturnal coyotes would be any more bold during the daytime with the presence of a dog on stand.

The answer I've been learning, is NO.

Ask anyone who tries to call coyotes here NY in the day how difficult it is and you'll very quickly begin to realize that I'm dealing with my own set of circumstances. That said, finding out how a dog might/might not work here was intruiging, so I wanted to give it a shot.

I would like to point out that I did NOT buy a "decoy dog" pup. Rather, I did alot of research on breeds and chose a pup that ideally would be an all around hunting/companion dog for me. Luckily, he's proven to be that, and then some!!! So the fact that our coyotes don't want to play with him on stand only stinks very little.
I could always travel to hunt with any of my friends around the country & prolly show him more coyotes in a week's time than he sees here all year.
But for now, I'm quite happy seeing him do this, 365days a year, without fail...




SO I honestly didn't have any illusions of grandeur about running a 'decoy dog' here in NY. It was just a fun project I've been trying out. And, for the record, I don't think anyone else's 'decoy dog' would have enjoyed much better success. After all, how can a dog get to 'decoying' a coyote that is ultra spooky to begin with AND conditioned to take off for the next county at the first sight of dog???
If anyone could 'splain otherwise, I'm all ears!!!


Quote:

Since your coyotes are boogering at the sight of your dog, and it is clear that size is the determining factor of how good of a decoy dog you have, then are you looking for a new, smaller, less intimidating dog?


I don't think size is THE determining factor in how good a decoy dog can be. If size where the factor, as you stated above, then wouldn't everyone on the board be running 15 lb. decoy dogs?

To answer in more detail, I honestly felt I could get away with a fair sized (40-50 lb.)dog here in NY. Remember, my coyotes are dang near twice the size of a desert coyote, and my cur actually appears 'smaller' than the scale would prove. An adult coyote looks friggin' HUGE next to him!

And to take it one step further, NY and PA have more & more guys running coyotes than ever before. You're a member of Matt's board & can see that for yourself. In this past year alone, there have been several different groups of hound hunters running trailhounds in my 'honey hole' areas where I call. Yes, they have permission and no I don't want to stop them, that's just how it is.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out how just one negative interaction with a pack of hounds will learn a coyote up QUICK as to how it reacts to seeing a dog in the woods. Despite KNOWING that, I still wanted to give my dog a shot, so I've brought him along to find out the hard way.
So call me an idiot for trying... wink

I'm [beeep] sure not getting a JRT to feed to our coyotes just to find out though! Even an African JRT!!! blush And I don't think that a 20-35 lb. dog would magically be the answer to getting these coyotes to commit. Could be, but I doubt it...


Quote:
No, i dont have any decoy dogs, and never have, but i feel as though im qualified to ask those questions, lol.

No you don't.
So go back & sit in the corner with kirby, w00t (just kiddin' wink )

Quote:
P.S. Sure is a heck of a conversation, lots of good stuff on here, kudos to you for starting it!


thanks, that was the whole idea!!!
Posted by: DTOM

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/09/12 11:44 AM

You are missing out on the best decoy action of all year by sitting out spring and summer. It's what a decoy dog is all about.

Tough making a decoy dog out of any dog if you don't get out and put numbers of coyotes in front of it. 10-20 a year is not going to do it. If you don't have the numbers where you live you will have to drive to get to them or accept that your dog may never make a very good decoy dog. Not due to any short comming of the dog, but due to you not doing your part.

There is no magic in coyote hunting and esp. not in a decoy dog. It is truely a numbers game. Could you make a field trial bird dog only showing it 12 birds a year? Probably not. The truth is most guys will never use a decoy dog how they are supposed to be used. Denning. It's too tough and too hot and too many other thing to do that time of year so it gets put on the back burner. Thats fine, but you can't go around thinking if I can't do it no one can because a few of us do and we MAKE it work by putting our own hard work and time and money into making a decoy dog a decoy dog not just a hunting buddy that scares off coyotes or sits at your side and then goes and rags a dead coyote a few time a year.

This is one of the reasons I think flooding the market with "decoy dogs" is not the right thing to do. Most guys won't use them how they are meant to be utilized or when they are most effective.

Just my opinion from watching no one have an idea what decoy dogs are 10 years ago to now when just about every guy has or wants one to increase his numbers. I got news for you a dog just isn't going to do it by itself. You are a team and YOU must put some into it to get any out of it.

Tim
Posted by: doggin coyotes

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/09/12 02:01 PM

"What makes a coyote chase a dog?"

I'm thinking steak bones around the neck, Oscar Meyer wieners around the middle and [beeep] in heat smeared under tail section outta do it.
Posted by: Oregon310

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/09/12 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: doggin coyotes
"What makes a coyote chase a dog?"

I'm thinking steak bones around the neck, Oscar Meyer wieners around the middle and [beeep] in heat smeared under tail section outta do it.


I want one of Duane's dog's, but for now I think the 100 pound or more lab in this video is just my speed. He uses doggin's method & doesn't even have to leave the yard.

http://youtu.be/CvrGxR9aLTY
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/09/12 02:35 PM

Originally Posted By: DTOM
You are missing out on the best decoy action of all year by sitting out spring and summer. It's what a decoy dog is all about.

Tough making a decoy dog out of any dog if you don't get out and put numbers of coyotes in front of it. 10-20 a year is not going to do it. If you don't have the numbers where you live you will have to drive to get to them or accept that your dog may never make a very good decoy dog. Not due to any short comming of the dog, but due to you not doing your part.

There is no magic in coyote hunting and esp. not in a decoy dog. It is truely a numbers game. Could you make a field trial bird dog only showing it 12 birds a year? Probably not. The truth is most guys will never use a decoy dog how they are supposed to be used. Denning. It's too tough and too hot and too many other thing to do that time of year so it gets put on the back burner. Thats fine, but you can't go around thinking if I can't do it no one can because a few of us do and we MAKE it work by putting our own hard work and time and money into making a decoy dog a decoy dog not just a hunting buddy that scares off coyotes or sits at your side and then goes and rags a dead coyote a few time a year.

This is one of the reasons I think flooding the market with "decoy dogs" is not the right thing to do. Most guys won't use them how they are meant to be utilized or when they are most effective.

Just my opinion from watching no one have an idea what decoy dogs are 10 years ago to now when just about every guy has or wants one to increase his numbers. I got news for you a dog just isn't going to do it by itself. You are a team and YOU must put some into it to get any out of it.

Tim



Tim, I'm well aware of when "prime time" is.
And I agree with every word in your post, 100%
Thank you!
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/09/12 02:54 PM

Gee thanks Fred, for sitting me in a corner? In all of this jabber laugh laugh

Heck I only chimed in cuz (according to some?) dogs iz coyotes & coyotes iz dogs. Et aahs be-uns around bote fur a long tame grin

Speaking of which sure size does matter to some coyotes but not all of them. Side note; Iffen I were to fetch me a decoy dog to hunt coyotes wit. Aaahs be a picken me won in the 25-40 lb range. Rather than some big ole grizz dog. Most coyotes iz cowards, unless they be a toting back-up family group members.

Size-up, size-up, dat what dey do.
Posted by: Jesse lackey

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/09/12 09:14 PM

Fred, i wasnt trying to jab at you, and i appreciate the honest answers, But you answered them just as i figured you would, and thats just what i was hoping for.

I dont mean to put words into your mouth or anything, but from what i understand, you wanted a dog to be your companion, so you got one, but an important part of that companiouship was hunting. You knew that from the start, so you made a great choice in picking a very versatile dog that should fill about any need.

The guy in the original post obviously didnt base his decision in dogs on hunting being a real gole. But, his priorities seem to be changing, and he wants to incorporate the dog that he already has into more of his activities.

Does anyone really think this horse of a dog is going to be a great decoy dog, or even ever decoy one single coyote? i sure dont, but im all for spending time in the field with dogs. I take a dog with me when im going to fix a fence. I know the dog isnt going to help me fix the fence, but i like having her there!

I see your point, and i understand, but i dont think anyone was giving him any falce hope, or ideas about just what his dog would do.

This has turned into a great discussion, and lots of good info is being shared, but you have made it clear that it is a direct result of the horse dog thread, and how it was handled. Just keep in mind that lots of us, including you i assume, think that anything can be made better by throwing a dog in it, and would never try to convince someone not to spend time with their dog whenever they can.

Hope im not coming off as a jack azz, or like im calling you out or anything, because im not, just trying to play "Devil's Advocate"
Posted by: Duane@ssu

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/09/12 11:45 PM

DTOM SURE MADE A GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 10:06 AM

Understood, Jesse. I think that other thread has been addressed to everyone's satisfaction.

It seems like some guys are all hung up on what their dog does AFTER the shot, rather than what the dog is, or isn't doing BEFORE the shot. It's the BEFORE part that makes a 'decoy dog' an asset, and is the part that fascinates me. That is why I started this thread, to put the focus back on HOW & WHY a decoy dog works on stand!

And onto a related, more 'touchy' subject of recommending "average" hunters to try decoy dogs...

When running a 'decoy dog' during "prime time", I feel one now owns the added responsibility to taking care of certain unglorifying aspects of the task, namely denning. I can't see that as being any sort of fun, but I do see the necessity...

I am of the opinion tha encouraging 'decoy dogging' during the denning period without even acknowleging or addressing what needs to be done after taking adult coyotes is completely irresponsible!

That is exactly why I won't encourage ANY "average" hunter to try decoying coyotes during this upcoming "prime time", whether his dog is a 115 lb. mastiff, a 15 lb. JRT, or a 35 lb. cur!!! This topic ties back into the OTHER thread about recommending & encouraging other hunters to "just try your dog out and see what happens". Well, consider this for a moment...

What if that hunter, who'd otherwise not be in the field, takes his dog out in the next month to "try" on stand, gets lucky and kills a coyote? As he proudly stands over his pet dog's first coyote experience, he notices that he has just shot dead, a WET female. Maybe he realizes that there is a litter of pups in the ground somewhere, maybe he doesn't. He might only remember that the guys on Predator Masters collectively encouraged him to "try it out and see what happens" without mentioning the part that, as a result of him killing an adult coyote, there might be a den of helpless pups now without a mother to sustain them.

Is that HIS fault for not knowing better, or those who encouraged him here in this forum's fault for not sharing that 'unsavory' part with him???
Is it nobody's fault and coyotes are not worth the consideration?

Think about that a minute before you jump on me for asking.

Maybe some you guys might want to take pause before encouraging guys to try a dog in the spring/summer, maybe not. That's up to you guys. I'm just offering up something to ponder & playing "devil's advocate" again to encourage everyone to look at the big picture of what happens when "average" hunters are encouraged to hunt with a dog this time of year.

I figure, 99 times out of 100, those same "average" hunters are either not aware of, not willing to, or not capable of, handling a denning situation after taking the adults out of an area. I know I'm not, and I'm not comfortable with knowing that a litter of pups might be in a hole somewhere that need taken care of.


Would anyone care to comment on recommending/ running decoy dogs during the summer when there are young pups in the ground?
And for the guy who plan on it, do you feel that it is worth the effort to see your dog 'work' if you run the risk of leaving pups in a hole somewhere?
Are you prepared to see through a denning situation after taking an adult? Or do you walk away with your camera, dog & gun without giving it a second thought?

This is where the casual/recreational side of enjoying a 'decoy dog' crosses over into why ADC men employ the use of them. So I'd sure like to hear how the recreational hunters are prepared to handle that type of situation?

Like I said, 'touchy' subject. But I'd like to hear the "decoy doggers" opinions (not you kirby wink ) & especially from the guys who are in the decoy dog business to make a profit.

Jesse, I'd like to hear from you, too, since you run hounds. Do you run in the spring/summer? If so, how do you handle the denning aspect after an adult is taken?


Thanks...
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 10:27 AM

And please keep in mind, I'm not preaching!
I shared my opinion above and would very much like to here from everyone who has participated in this thread.
We are all big boys & do what we please, I'd just like to hear about your take on spring/summer recreational decoy doggin' & recommending that pursuit to the "average" hunter trying a pet dog on stand...

thoughts?
comments?
opinions?
Posted by: Dustballs

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 10:45 AM

This has been a good subject. I tried to play the devils advocate but you wouldnt bite. LOL My opinion is that what happens after the shot is as equal importance to me as is what happens before the shot. Example: If I have two or more coyotes come in at once and I shoot one (usually the least aggressive) I dont want my dog running out to wool the one I shot. I want the dogs to try and engage the ones that are still alive and bring them back.

I am a recreational guy and my coyote hunting is just getting ramped up. You make some very good points about the recreational hunter doing what is necessary after taking a wet female. I do everything I can to make sure there are no survivors. My two boys who are now 9 and 4 now love going with me. They love to watch the dogs and coyotes as much as I and my oldest now packing his own 223. I was wondering how they would handle the first time cleaning out a hole. At first they gave the "But dad they are just babies". I explained it much in the same way you have. They are fine with it now and usually keep a little distance at that time.

Good points.
Posted by: btech29

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 12:12 PM

Good question Fred. I battle that subject and Im somewhat uneasy with the thought of it. I think you can push it right to the edge without having to be confronted with the denning aspect. April, then July and August are great times for prime dog work. I didnt kill any wet females in July last year. It is possible to run into one but I didnt. I guess you could raise that question on any animal though. How about dillos? Hogs? Skunk? Some animals get a free pass when talking about this subject. Just a thought.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 12:41 PM

As for nursing from what I've seen. Pups are introduced to regurged prey quite early. Around 6wks old give or take.

Around 8wks + some will still suckle if the female is still producing milk. Et she still tolerates the pounding of her pups. Even during that time some will start to eat insects as well as small prey their parents killed & brought back.

Even if the female is killed off during those latter wks. The male will take over her duties providing meat. As well as teaching his young to hunt & explore.

Female Red regurging for her young pups. Video clip taken the other day. Click on the pic.
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 01:24 PM

Originally Posted By: dustballs
This has been a good subject. I tried to play the devils advocate but you wouldnt bite. LOL


I did bite, just that I told the honest truth, best I know how. One doesn't ever have to remember what one has said if it was the truth wink smile

Thank you for adding to the conversation!!! I'm glad to see that you do everything in your power to act responsibly and teach your young men to do the same.
I like to remember GC's sigline here on the board. It read "doing the right thing isn't always easy, but it's always right"
IMHO, you are doing "right", dustballs...

Originally Posted By: btech29
I guess you could raise that question on any animal though. How about dillos? Hogs? Skunk? Some animals get a free pass when talking about this subject. Just a thought.

Jeff, Yes, you could raise that question, but I'd sure like to keep the topic within the realm of decoy dogs and coyotes. So unless Spot 'decoys' skunks & dillos ON PURPOSE (don't answer that!!! laugh ) let's stay focused on coyotes, please.
I see that kirby wants to talk about foxes vomiting on each other, instead of decoy dogs & coyotes, but I can't add anything to that confused

OK, to the rest of you doggers: you've been 'decoyed' into the conversation, so don't run away now!!! wink
Let us know your opinions on decoy doggin' in the spring/summer, how you go about the work of finding & handling a den AND if you think recommending a novice to "try it out for himself" is a good idea during this time???

Posted by: DTOM

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 01:32 PM

The trouble with only killing one adult is that you run the chance of turning the remaining adult into a problem animal. Lone adults often turn to the easiest food source to keep up with the needs of the young. Most often this is stock or other "man made" food sources.

Working dens is awful hard without the right tools or dogs. I would guess most guys wouldn't bother with it. Just finding them is a challenge if your dogs are not "tuned" to backtrack to them.

I guess I'm lucky as I have a financial incentive to find each coyote and not just a moral one.
Posted by: btech29

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 01:59 PM

Sorry Fred. Not meaning to get off track. Here's my opinion on summer time coyotes. Its better not to do it. I wont bash anyone if they want to do it. If its bad then the state should close the season. If the state dont choose to close season then there may be a need for it.
Posted by: DTOM

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 02:40 PM

Originally Posted By: knockemdown
OK, to the rest of you doggers: you've been 'decoyed' into the conversation, so don't run away now!!! wink
Let us know your opinions on decoy doggin' in the spring/summer, how you go about the work of finding & handling a den AND if you think recommending a novice to "try it out for himself" is a good idea during this time???



I find dens a couple different ways. I always have an idea where the dens are from locating either early morning before sun up or late night after dark. Kinda like roosting turkeys the night before a hunt. I travel areas of the ranch that historically have had dens and often find new residents in old den sites or very near them. I also will listen to where a pair of coyotes howl from and then make notes on topo maps and mapping gps and develope a "game plan" on how to get to the "place" I want to be in reguards to location of coyotes and direction of the wind, the sun and other terrain features that I want to use to my advantage instead of the coyotes using them to their advantage. After a while you get to have a sense about where a K9 will den and if you map year after year you will have a historical record to back up your search.

That alone generally puts me near the the den. I then call and hopefully decoy the adults off the den. Often this means not shooting ther first coyote to appear and work the dogs. I want the coyote to make a huge ruckus and attract the other adults. I then will choose the least aggressive coyote to shoot first. It is often the female that will hold back "off" the dogs but not always. I then will use the dogs to work any live coyotes back into gun range and take them as well. By shooting from back to front and least aggressive to most aggressive you are increasing your odds at getting more then one to work you and the dogs. After the shot and recovery of the adults I will have the dogs back track to the den. I personally believe that a dog has to learn to track backwards as it is not in too many good dogs nature to backtrack a hot track. Once a dog gets the hang of it and realizes that they can find more coyotes by backtracking they will do it on their own and make quick work of finding the den.

Once we have physically found the den I let the decoy dogs work it over quite a bit as I watch from a distance in hopes of getting any other adult coyotes to show themselves. I never used to do it that way. I would just turn the terriers loose and let the chips fall as they may but after loosing a few terriers and seeing that decoy dogs can and will draw other adult coyotes out I have started doing it to save on wear and tear to the terriers. An adult coyote in the ground is a tough job for a terrier to handle and better left to a bigger dog and a rifle if you can help it.

Once I am reasonably certain that we have all the adults I will let the terriers work the den and draw any pups they find out. You could also dig them out or poison the den or smoke it out if it is legal where you are but I love the dog work and the terrier spirit so I use them more than any other way.

Tools of the trade are shovels, breaker bars, picks, axes, a well stocked first aid kit on you and a better one in the truck, water for the dogs and you, and all the other assorted calling and dog handling supplies you would normally take. I use a 6x6 polaris utv but you could also use a horse or the boot leather express. In a good day I will work 2-5 dens. I am at it from well before sun up to well after sun down. I plan for 3-5 week trips and like to work in a circuit of ranches. The ranches I work love to see me and the dogs pull up and often we will either camp or stay in a bunk house on the ranches we work. Most of my contacts come from either cattlemens assoc. or sheepherders assoc. with a smattering of private ranchers thrown in as well.

Sounds easy when you read it but in reality it is a ton of work and time. Let alone the cost of keeping decoy dogs and terriers. I love it and as much as I love fur hunting I can not wait until the spring comes and I again find myself following my dogs across the great wide open. I mostly do it to make some pocket money and pay for hunting trips and equipment, dog food and to keep the "old school" way alive. I've been lucky to have had some great denners to teach me the ways of using dogs to den. I feel that working the dens provides a service for the ranches and a tether to my past, the past of my forefathers and the working past of the dogs I keep that is disappearing from the rural American landscape as the older generation passes on to the hunting stands in the sky.

Tim
Posted by: CAT DADDY COLD

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 03:22 PM

Perfect post.

Tim,
When I retire from my day job, can me and my dogs get a summer job with you?

Stay after them and don't kill all the okie coyotes this year...lol

Kelly

Posted by: TonyTebbe

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 04:45 PM

Well written Tim. Alot of information and just and enjoyable read.

Thanks for sharing.

Tony
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 05:35 PM

I try not to shoot wet females. I want there to be as many coyotes as possible for me to hunt. I hunt for fun and don't shoot coyotes from the road simply because I figure that's just another one I might be able to hunt at some point. Plus, I suck at finding dens.
Posted by: Catdawg

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 07:25 PM

Tim- Great posts, you are living the dream buddy.

Tony- Great posts as well, you are also living the dream.

The majority of the rest of us, Fred included, are just regular guys that try and go hunt some coyotes when we can and some of us try and take a dog with us, when we can.

I don't care if my dog costs me 5 coyotes a day (never has that I know of) she's coming along or I am staying home, year round.

As far as telling people that are new to the game, to go for it with whatever dog they have... I will keep on, keeping on. If they are so inclined to go give it a try, they have every right.

As far as leaving pups in the den, I don't give a hoot or holler about them pups. Like someone said, the male will raise the pups on his own if they are weaned, or for all I care, they can perish. Nature is cruel and this is a harsh world we live in. I call it feeding Badgers.

Fred- I have a couple questions for you. What do you care how someone else hunts or what dog they carry to the field? Does it really matter if someone takes a dog that you feel would never make a decoy dog and goes and has some fun, successful or not?

In the right country a guy with a Cane Corso could do a lot better than you have admittedly done with your, bred for it Cur dog.

I'm sure you have had a good time out with your dog even with your limited success. So again, why are you the only one that is allowed to go give it a whirl? Would you feel different if everyone had a Cur that wanted to go give her a whirl?

Take care.
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Catdawg

Fred- I have a couple questions for you. What do you care how someone else hunts or what dog they carry to the field? Does it really matter if someone takes a dog that you feel would never make a decoy dog and goes and has some fun, successful or not?


Easy Mason, I don't.
And no, it doesn't matter at all what I feel. My opinion is worth the same as anyone else's, so take it for whatever you think it's worth. Just making conversation, and obviously this thread has some wheels turning... smile

Quote:
As far as telling people that are new to the game, to go for it with whatever dog they have... I will keep on, keeping on. If they are so inclined to go give it a try, they have every right.


Absolutely. This is the US of A, do whatever ya like. But I dang sure ain't gonna encourage someone to try something that I persnally might disagree with. And if I disagree with something, I will occasionally exercise my right to let that be known, instead of turning a blind eye. Its obvious by the other member posts in this thread that I'm not alone...

Quote:

In the right country a guy with a Cane Corso could do a lot better than you have admittedly done with your, bred for it Cur dog.

I'll got ahead and call BULL$HIT on that one, right there. Prove it, or the speculation ain't worth the paper it was wrote on.
And since you guys keep bringing up MY dog, I think IF my dog were given the conditions to shine, I truly think he just might make some halfazzed decoy dog. After all, Mason, haven't you hunted with at least a few of the dogs in his ancestry??? wink
If they weren't $hit, they'd have caught a bullet, NO???

Like someone wrote above, I AM THE MAIN REASON my dog hasn't seen more coyotes. I choose to live here, so it is 100% my fault and I take 100% full responsibility.

Someday, I'll make a trip somewhere "good" to show him some coyotes, since I have open invites to do just that with some good friends. Or, I could just as easily remain happy with him for what he already does to please me. I have nothing to prove to anyone, but myself...

Quote:

I'm sure you have had a good time out with your dog even with your limited success. So again, why are you the only one that is allowed to go give it a whirl? Would you feel different if everyone had a Cur that wanted to go give her a whirl?


Mason, you're reading too much into my motives without actually knowing them.
I don't think that at all. Nor does the breed of dog have anything to do with it. Again, you are reaching, but why, I ask? If you are attempting to trip me up with my own words, good luck with that! I'm telling the truth, as I see it, and being as honest as possible, so keep on asking & I'll keep on answering. But that's just de-railing the topic again, so I'll get us back on track... wink
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 08:20 PM

Originally Posted By: SHampton
I try not to shoot wet females. I want there to be as many coyotes as possible for me to hunt. I hunt for fun and don't shoot coyotes from the road simply because I figure that's just another one I might be able to hunt at some point. Plus, I suck at finding dens.


Scott, I respect that. Can you please elaborate on how you can positively identify a "wet" female in the field before shooting one?
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: TonyTebbe
Well written Tim. Alot of information and just and enjoyable read.

Thanks for sharing.

Tony


Yes, INDEED!
That was incredible, thanks for sharing your knowledge, DTOM!

Tony, I'd sure like to know how you handle that situation while catering to clients during denning season. After all, that is the "prime time" for decoy doggin' right?

Do you do the extra work, or choose to leave pups in the ground to "feed the badgers", as Mason stated he does?

Posted by: btech29

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 08:37 PM

Fred, you may have said but what is your opinion? Is it legal to hunt in May and June in NY? I know here is Arkansas I have no option but to quit during that time because season is closed. How about you? Are you forced to quit or just your choice to quit?
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 08:55 PM

NY coyote season opens 10/1 and runs through 3/25.
PA to the south of where I hunt in NY has no closed season.
If I did choose to hunt in PA for my own selfish reasons of seeing my dog work, I'd do so with the intention of handling whatever is necessary after taking an adult.
Since I've absolutely ZERO experience with that situation, I usually only hunt in PA in September, a month before NY season opens...
SO, to answer your question, I quit by choice. I want as many coyotes to make it to the fall/winter as possible because that is my 'fun time' to call them. Even if the dog makes 'em leave!
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 09:11 PM

You can see their bags.
Posted by: btech29

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 09:38 PM

I can respect your opinion Fred. I also respect those who choose to hunt. If its legal then more power to ya.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 09:41 PM

Originally Posted By: SHampton
You can see their bags.


I beg the big dipper with you SHampton. A nursing female will not "always be "bagged". See my fox video above in this thread.

One more thing while I've wedged myself into this discussion. When a pr of coyotes are on the move, traveling, hunting whatever. The female is almost always(more often than not...9 out of 10x, ect) in the lead. While the male brings up the rear or is the lag coyote.

The female is also the most aprehensive/wary of the two. As she will check-up if something isn't right. That is when the male will often take the lead "temporarily". Once everything has checked out as "normal" Then the female will again take over the lead. Where she goes, the male follows. She sets the tempo.
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 09:54 PM

When their close you can see em pretty good most of the time.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 10:01 PM

Here is a nursing Red from last yr. The only sign you can tell she is nursing other than watching her pups feed. Is her belly fur is thin & her nipples are dark.

Non-bagged nursing female.



BTW, I don't give a hoot whether a hunter tags one or not.
Posted by: btech29

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 10:04 PM

You got better eyes than me Scott. lol
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 10:34 PM

I shot 1 wet female last year. I'm not sayin you can see it everytime I'm sayin I saw several with big bags like a pet dog and didn't shoot them.
Posted by: Duane@ssu

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 10:58 PM

If you are wanting to reduce yote numbers,kill the adults, and let the dogs back track to the den, and kill the pups, pretty simple.
As it was said before, if the state you are in allows it, then you can hunt/kill yotes any way within the law.that includes useing decoy dogs to there potential around dens in the spring. I'll say that killing pups ain't fun, but it dam sure reduces the # of dead calves,and other spring babies.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: SHampton
I shot 1 wet female last year. I'm not sayin you can see it everytime I'm sayin I saw several with big bags like a pet dog and didn't shoot them.


10-4, SHampton I don't doubt you. I was merely making a point about nursing females. So others may learn.
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/10/12 11:32 PM

I understand.
Posted by: Catdawg

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 11:51 AM

Fred- You missed my points by a long ways. I know a lot of the dogs behind your pup and you are right, if they weren't good dogs they would have caught a bullet. I also know how the wrong area can really handicap a pup. I've raised hounds here in the desert and up in the mountains and there is a huge difference.

I said "In the right country" a guy could do better with a Cane Corso than you have with Pokey. I wasn't putting you or the dog down at all, I was simply implying that a guy could go out and have some fun with his dog. Call BS all you want, you don't have any idea about how coyotes act out here and in good spots, a guy could bring more in with the dogs in a weekend than you have. It's not apples to apples at all.

It is amazing how much you have to know, to realize how little you actually do know. You're not there yet my friend.

One last question for you Fred: Deer, Horses and Cows all eat the same thing, grass. Yet Deer drop pellets, Horses drop apples and Cows leave pies... Why is that?

Take care.
Posted by: DTOM

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 12:26 PM

Mason- I don't know why but I've had dogs that would slurp each up like they were candy. I've got one female now that can't pass a cowpie up without doing a barrel roll into it. Nasty dog.

Take care.

Tim
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 12:30 PM

Wet cow piles have an unexplainable force field that pulls my dog to them. It has to have something to do with his collar because it seems to always get packed full.
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 07:51 PM

Thanks for clarifying, Mason.
That makes perfect sense, it wouldn't take much to do better than ZERO, LOL!!!
Getting off topic again, but I KNOW I'm handicapped here,and this topic isn't aboutme, or my dog. So I got defensive & called BS. Somehow, the topic kept getting re-directed at me, so I reckon I read that wrong. But I still don't think a 115 lb. dog would be worth a crap on stand, so my BS assessment stands laugh

And while I'm at it, I've actually hunted coyotes in your state of Nevada, as well as Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri....blah blah blah, yadda yadda. So I'm darn sure, hunting out there is certainly not apples to apples, as compared to back this way. Not even close!!! Back on topic...

Don't know what all about the droppings, cause they're all just $hit to me wink

Thanks again for clarifying, I appreciate that. And I also appreciate the info & advice you offered me back when I first got my dog.
One more thing. Although I strongly disagree with you about the "badger food" deal, I can still find it in me to give you props for speaking freely about it.

take care, man!
Posted by: Catdawg

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 08:08 PM

Don't get all riled up... You have proven to us all that you know $hit!

Just messing with you buddy.

Take care.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 08:33 PM

"What makes a coyote chase a dog?"

IMO, these local/territorial coyotes that see another canine on their land. Triggers a response from them they can't help. Whether it is standing aways away & barking/yapping. Or running in to fight or run off the tresspasser canine.

Add the mate/(or the whole family group) to that Territorial adult coyote. Et they can/will be even more bold or agressive. I've spoken with hundreds of farmers & acrege owners over the yrs. A number of them have told me about their dog & the area coyotes interactions.

Even large dogs have been piled on right in the farm or acrege yard. Most of those dog vs coyote interactions. There was more than one coyote present. Except a couple of incidents. Where it was one on one.

One acrege owner. Owned a large male Golden Retriever cross. Dog was very large. One night the owner chained that dog to the back door out on their cement patio. A pr of coyotes came into the yard & piled onto that dog.

Owner ran to the kitchen & flipped on the outside light. The dog was on his back, one coyote had the dog by the throat. The other coyote was tearing into the dogs belly.

Owner ran out yelling & started kicking the coyotes. The coyotes continued their attack on the dog. Eventually the owner & his wife had to beat the coyotes with brooms. Before they finally let go & ran off into the darkness.

Why, oh why? you ask laugh Well for starters, the dog was a tresspasser. Secondly the coyotes sized up their foe, then commenced an all out attack.
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 08:35 PM

don't judge a person til you've walked a mile in his shoes... LOL
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 08:37 PM

kirby,
that guy shoulda had a Cane Corso...
Posted by: Jesse lackey

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 10:17 PM

Originally Posted By: knockemdown


Jesse, I'd like to hear from you, too, since you run hounds. Do you run in the spring/summer? If so, how do you handle the denning aspect after an adult is taken?


Thanks...


Sorry, just now saw this.

Yes, we run all year round, spring summer fall and winter. But, running hounds is a totaly different ball game. We are free casting hounds into the woods. This time of year we all know the yotes are quite agressive. We all know why right? because they are protecting pups in the ground. You will never find a den without a coyote on guard somewhere close, and its not the wet female. So when you cast a dog, and gets close to a den, and is messing around making noise, there is going to be atleast one coyote there to intercept him. Again, usually not the wet female. Infact, it can be very hard to get a yote going this time of year because they stay fairly close to the den, and when a dog opens, they will all close in and push the dog away from the den. So when a smart old dog gets one infront of him, and gets him moving, the chances of it being a wet female are pretty slim to none.

But, we all know its not impossible. So lets just say the wet female ventured off a little farther than normal to feed, and our dogs stumbled apon her tracks, and now she is running for her life. Could Happen, But think about this. Between me and my brother in law, and the 7 hounds we ran most this year, we caught around 30 coyotes this winter. 4 of those were females. We ran lots of females, but caught only 4. A female runs alot better, and a hound has to honestly over take her, and catch her on her feet, where a male will run hard for only so long, get tired and decide that he needs to find a place to stop and fight. We dont shoot coyotes, so i would say the chances of our hounds catching a wet female this time of year is pretty slim.

Ok, so we have decided that the chances of catching a wet female are slim, but lets just say we did (in all the years i have spent running hounds i have seen two wet females caught) If i knew exactly where the den was, i might go dig it up, but probably not.

I have had the blessing to spend lots and lots of time with a man who as far as im concerned has more coyote sence than anyone i have ever met in my life. He has made his living on coyotes for over 50 years. I only ever shot one coyote while i was with him, and it was a wet female coming out of a den. He asked me to shoot her when we were having a similar conversation. Said he was going to teach me something. Well, i shot her, and threw her in the back of the truck. Well, he took me back to that very spot every day for a week, to show me a new coyote going in and out of the den. He took me back a few weeks later to show me all the little coyote pups running around the mouth of the den.

So long story short, i dont think its right to target wet females unless you are going to take care of the pups, but at the same time i dont think a guy should stop hunting because of the pups. Coyotes were made to survive, and there is none better fit to survive than a coyote. Coyote pups are pretty hard to kill, so for me, with limited coyotes in the area, and no need to reduce their numbers drasticly, i would rather give them a fighting chance at living, rather than diggin them up and thumping them.
Posted by: Jeff Mock

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 10:21 PM

That was great Jesse.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/11/12 11:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey


I have had the blessing to spend lots and lots of time with a man who as far as im concerned has more coyote sence than anyone i have ever met in my life. He has made his living on coyotes for over 50 years. I only ever shot one coyote while i was with him, and it was a wet female coming out of a den. He asked me to shoot her when we were having a similar conversation. Said he was going to teach me something. Well, i shot her, and threw her in the back of the truck. Well, he took me back to that very spot every day for a week, to show me a new coyote going in and out of the den. He took me back a few weeks later to show me all the little coyote pups running around the mouth of the den.


I'm not quite following this part? About a "new" coyote going in and out of the den." Are you talking about the other adult coyote of the pups? OR a "non-related" neighboring adult coyote or a non-related nomadic adult coyote tending to pups. That are not theirs?
Posted by: Jesse lackey

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 07:19 AM

Ummmmmmmmmmmm, Kirby I'm not sure which group you listed this would be, but there was a new coyote tending the pups. Don't know where it came from or sex or anything like that.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 07:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
Ummmmmmmmmmmm, Kirby I'm not sure which group you listed this would be, but there was a new coyote tending the pups. Don't know where it came from or sex or anything like that.


Jesse I understand your reply. The part that don't jive with me. Is a "non-related? coyote" showing up to tend to pups that no longer have their mother. The father(if still alive) of those pups will take over the female's duties. If she is killed. As long as the pups have been introduced to meat. A fresh kill or re-gurged prey, before the female is killed. In other words, weaned. If weaned, they would then have a good chance of surviving. I've seen this very thing with Red Fox.

BTW, even IF weaned. Et if the female is still producing milk. Her pups will continue to suckle.

An adult mated pr of coyotes that have their own territory. Then have a litter of pups. Do not tolerate "un-related" coyotes to venture ONTO their territory. Let alone show up to rear their pups. If that were the case, then there would be "packs/groups" of non-related coyotes on a pr's territory all yr around. Liken to some big "un-related" happy family. Point being, coyotes are NOT a true "pack" canine. Like wolves are. Allowing "non-related" wolves to join their pack. As well as assist in rearing the alpha's pups.

Coyotes have either a family group/(alpha male, alpha female & their off-spring). Otherwise when dispersed/scattered yearlings can/will "group-up" for a limited time. As when they are in search of their own mate & or their own territory.
Posted by: trapper2

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 08:52 PM

kirby, what he's saying is after he killed the female another coyote either fed or nursed those pups, i seen it happen, i have seen the male feed pups and i have seen another female come to her milk and nurse pups, i dont know if the female was a last year pup out of the pair or not but i have seen it
Posted by: emeraldterriers1

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 08:59 PM

i agree with kirby, jesse you may have shot a wet female but i dont think a surrogate mother took over. they are too territorial.
Posted by: DoubleCK

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:04 PM

Originally Posted By: trapper2
kirby, what he's saying is after he killed the female another coyote either fed or nursed those pups, i seen it happen, i have seen the male feed pups and i have seen another female come to her milk and nurse pups, i dont know if the female was a last year pup out of the pair or not but i have seen it


I had another ADC Pro tell me the same thing. I was going to ask about it but didn't want to throw out 2nd hand stuff.

Sounds crazy but the guy who told me is a real pro, Sheep Ranch ADC guy. Now hearing the same thing from Trapper2 I have to buy it.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:07 PM

Originally Posted By: trapper2
kirby, what he's saying is after he killed the female another coyote either fed or nursed those pups, i seen it happen, i have seen the male feed pups and i have seen another female come to her milk and nurse pups, i dont know if the female was a last year pup out of the pair or not but i have seen it


Jesse couldn't recall whether that coyote was male, female or if related. The non-related part is what I don't buy. Speaking of an alpha pr keeping back a yearling female into the next season. To assist in rearing pups. I never bought into that scenario for many yrs. Not until I seen it 1st hand not many yrs ago. I've only seen that once in all the yrs, I've observed & or hunted coyotes. Which is 44 seasons.

Speaking of which I seen that very same thing with a pr of older Reds, that same yr/(What are the odds of that blink) They too, kept back a yearling pup throughout the Winter. So I know now, that scenario can or does exist. But I happen to believe it is much more rare, than common place.
Posted by: Jesse lackey

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:16 PM

What the heck CK, Trapper2 is more credable than me now? Im truly hurt! hahahahah

Kirby, i dont meen to sound like a smart azz, but its just so natural to me, so here goes...................
Im not sure what the coyote's relation was to the pups, I tried to ask, but this perticular yote spoke spanish!

All im saying is that all the "wildlife Biologists" and "experts" can say, and wright books, and internet articles about things that they know to be true, But when people who spend all day every day dealing with the critters, rather than making maps of their travels, and watching them from a hill top with a camera tell and show me something, it tends to make a believer of me. I will take facts proven by my own eyes any day over what i read on wickapedia.
Posted by: DoubleCK

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:21 PM

Sorry Jesse, but your posts have just gotten too long for my short attention span. That one was a whopper! LOL
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Jesse lackey
What the heck CK, Trapper2 is more credable than me now? Im truly hurt! hahahahah

Kirby, i dont meen to sound like a smart azz, but its just so natural to me, so here goes...................
Im not sure what the coyote's relation was to the pups, I tried to ask, but this perticular yote spoke spanish!

All im saying is that all the "wildlife Biologists" and "experts" can say, and wright books, and internet articles about things that they know to be true, But when people who spend all day every day dealing with the critters, rather than making maps of their travels, and watching them from a hill top with a camera tell and show me something, it tends to make a believer of me. I will take facts proven by my own eyes any day over what i read on wickapedia.


Well then we might be related? laugh RUN...JESSE...RUN
Well I'm pretty much the same way, Jesse. If the experts opinions/theorys don't match/(or counter) what I've seen in the field. Then their opinions/theorys to ME don't hold much IF any water.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:26 PM

Now back to decoying. Lion dog or lap dog? Go
Posted by: trapper2

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:28 PM

i guess i missed something jesse said, i cant find where he said it was non-related, the only place i see that is from you. i dont know how often it happens but it can and does. we aint all going to agree on everything and i wasnt trying to get anyone to, just stating what i have seen
Posted by: emeraldterriers1

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:29 PM

so if the 2nd coyote was wet??? was there 2 different litters of pups in the same den. she had to have pups otherwise she wouldnt have milk.
Posted by: trapper2

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:33 PM

emerald, the gyp i saw only raised that set of pups, i believe she was dry and came to her milk, just what i think and saw, no proof. i do know of two different guys that have bought coyote pups home to raise and their female dogs came to their milk with in 4 days and raised those pups, i guess from motherly nature, again just a guess, but it happened
Posted by: emeraldterriers1

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:43 PM

interesting,i figured they would have to of whelped a litter
Posted by: trapper2

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:47 PM

maybe she had in the past, i dont know, i know both of the dogs that came to their milk had raised litters in the past but not anywhere close to the time the coyote pups were brought home and they went to raising them
Posted by: SHampton

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 09:55 PM

Posted by: Coyote Cruiser

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/12/12 10:22 PM

My dog and I have been mentioned a few times so I will throw in my 2 cents. I would like to thank Knockemdown he has called me a young man twice. No longer true but I will take it every time. Yep I have a Cane Corso and he is going to be hunting with me. I haven't figured out a way to really use his strenghts yet. Denning season seems like the best time I could get Mr G out see some yotes that might interact and not run from the sight him. At this point I am thinking coyote retreiver and or a decoy not to bring them in but to draw attention away from me. He is definatly getting a dog back pack so he can haul his own gear and water maybe the AR,extra ammo, shotgun, ammo for the shotgun, my strut seat. He is a working dog so he is gonna work. I am not taking him out just to watch him "wool up" dead yotes.

Knockemdown has what seemed to be legitimate concern about the safety of a pet being taken into the field. Would I take an average fat black lab tennis ball chaser out coyote hunting or recommend anyone else did? Probably not, but in my post I mentioned that my dog is in good shape and is no stranger to dog on dog conflict. A dog with a ton of drive that's smart and eager to please seems like a great hunting partner no matter how big he is. Would i buy a Cane Corso to hunt coyotes? H-ell no! I could get a pack of Curs and an old horse with money still left for gas instead.

There was talk about killing coyotes and the time of year. I have been shooting coyotes for about 23 years. I have my prime spots where no cattle graze good deer populations and more than a few desert bighorns I leave those yotes alone during the spring/summer. Nature has a good balance there why mess around. Another place I go I killem all regardless of size,sex,nipple shape,shade,walking,standing,running, playing or sleeping in a den. The cowpoke that grazes his heard around there likes to see the buzzards circling a litter of pups and a female instead of his calves. Any man who has the balls to graze his cattle in a sea of jumping cholla and steep canyons is gonna get a little help from me anytime I can give it. We are hunters we kill things and if anyone has a problem with it maybe we could start a "Pursuit Only" thread so they can discuss all the coyotes they didn't kill.

This is a great thread. I tip my cap to all of the members who have contributed.
Posted by: kirby

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/13/12 08:29 AM

Another visual of a non-bagged nursing female. Pic was taken yesterday. She has 4 pups.

Posted by: emeraldterriers1

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/13/12 08:40 AM

i would still be leary of using your cane corso retrieving a dead coyote....he could choke to death running with food in his mouth. and why would you subject the dog to carry all your gear when your capable of doing the same... to he!! with the curs get a saddle and ride that dog to your stands!lol
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/13/12 11:00 AM

good idea on the dogpack!

They make them for smaller dogs & I've outfitted my new decoy lap dog in style with a Louis Vuitton 'decoy dog' pack...


Then, when a coyote is finished with the dog, I can put what's left of him in the pack... scared

But that's OK, beacuse this is my other decoy dog prospect, also outfitted with a daypack...


I can put all sorts of dog toys, bones, balls & whatnot in the pack. Since those are the only things this dog will be chewing on stand... blushing


Hope those photos didn't offend anyone or hurt their feelings... rolleyes
Posted by: doggin coyotes

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/13/12 01:06 PM

How about a cool doggie trailer for all the hunting related crapola? Could even put the dead coyotes in it.

Posted by: Coyote Cruiser

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/13/12 06:49 PM

Ok Knockemdown that Louis V wearing Chihuahua has decoyed as many coyotes this year as your dog. tt2 So does breed and bloodline really make a difference? Does The fact that the Chihuahua wears a designer bag have any influence on how he is percieved by the coyotes? Does the Louis V bag just lead the coyotes to believe he is an Alpha because he can afford such a fine pack when they can only afford a fur coat? Is that what keeps his/her "decoy" numbers so low? Would the Chihuahua attract only female coyotes just so they can see his/her bag? Coyote behavior teaches to respect the Alpha does class envy play any part in this? Maybe the Chihuahua would be more effective if he/she wore a Coach bag from the outlet mall. That is it your dog needs a coach bag from the outlet mall to be more effective. I cannot prove it but since the Chihuahua and your Cur are running about the same average it couldn't hurt. lol



P.S. I hope knowone was offended or got there feeling hurt by this post.
Posted by: emeraldterriers1

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/13/12 09:50 PM

i feel a lockdown commin on... play nice.lmao
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/16/12 08:58 AM

LOL, no worries from my end!

Cruiser, I LOL'ed and appreciate the humor, and I don't have feelings, so we're good wink

I DO think there is ALOT of good info that's been shared in this thread. Certainly too much to let it frizzle out on a comedic note...
And when I said my dog didn't decoy a coyote, that was only since September. When the coyotes are in the mood, he does OK...



Mostly, it seems like our coyotes just ain't in the mood, even when they are supposed to be. They see the dog & BOLT from the him at first sight & don't return, like on this stand...



later!
Posted by: knockemdown

Re: What makes a coyote chase a dog? - 04/16/12 04:27 PM

OK, let's step away from "badger food", since that (apparently) didn't go over real well with some folks.

So here' some others question for you guys smile

How important do you think exposure at a young age is for making a decoy dog?

There's been some opinions shared that imply that 'decoying' is essetially a learned skill, as compared to an in-bred trait, such as natural 'treeing' instinct. Also, some guys have shared that almost any dog can learn the 'game' of decoying, if given time on stand.

Without disputing that, I'd like to know if an adult dog can be taken out and expected to learn the serious 'game' of tag that a decoy dog plays with a coyote?

Or, are those little training wrinkles imprinted on a young pup's pea-brain essential to bringing out that 'decoying' skill, assuming the dog has the right attitude for the work?

Essentially, are 'decoy' dogs born, or made???